How did I get to #1 literacy?

I just started this game which is going unbelievably well on Emperor, huge map, continents, 12 civs, and raging barbarians. This is the first game in which I've been able to keep and maintain #1 literacy from the beginning, and the funny thing is, I'm going for a cultural victory with Byzantium. I'm thinking that this is just a complete fluke game, but if anyone can point out something I'm not seeing feel free to comment.

I've had this game for about 3 weeks now. I'm just starting to go for cultural victory, and chose Byzantium since it seems best suited to this with the extra religion upgrade. My general approach as far as first city build is: scout, shrine, worker, settler. I feel that it's important to get that faith going early asap, otherwise you might lose that start a new religion which is essential (in my opinion, especially for Byzantium) with this cultural strategy. Also, stonehenge is an essential part of my early strategy, and it gets started as soon as the first settler gets done.

In this particular game, I had a major early production boon with 2 salt mines and one marble quarry in my start area, as well as a horse which showed up later. I had settler production in something like 7/8 turns!! very early in the game, which was so awesome that I built a second settler before starting stonehenge (I chose to ignore the GL).

So, I was able to pump out two more cities fairly quick before even starting the wonder. I was able to complete stonehenge and buy the 4th settler for 500 gold, thus establishing my core empire as shown in screenshot 2.

I checked the demographics and noted that I was #1 literacy which surprised me, as I was not bee-lining for libraries as I would if I'd been seeking a science victory. I might mention that out of the goodie huts I got +20 culture twice (which was a boon considering that was my VC option), archery free, barbarian encampments and maps two times I think, and I think I got some gold one time. I was able to get a fair amount of huts considering the large map and 12 other civs.

In my new cities I chose to concentrate on building shrines in first 4 (not monuments since I chose tradition SP and legalism asap which provides 4 monuments for free in first 4 cities and which provides extra culture).

Map 2 shows my core areas and my first 4 cities.
Map 0 shows a strategic view, the only way to show the whole map (most of it) of my empire by turn 157ish. I got 8 cities.
Map 1 shows the literacy demographic on turn 157
Map 3 shows the southern part of my empire: 3 cities outside my core which are expanded very far from the core.

My approach to expansion: settle as many cities as I could, but no more than I city per new luxury resource. I know there is a big debate between tall vs wide empires. Frankly, I don't think "tall" empires are viable on anything other than small games (maybe 2 player duels, or 4 empires on a small map). I always play large maps with the minimum default civs for that map size (12 or more), and "tall" civs don't work well in that setting because you're, for one thing, going to fall short of mid-game resources like iron and coal. I want to be "wide" enough so that I have a good chance of getting at least one coal, iron, oil, and the other end-game resources (which don't matter as much, as I'm hoping to win before then).

So, after getting the first 4 cities, I bee-lined for 4 more cities, noting the luxury resources on the strategic map near my core-sphere of influence. There is room for 4 more, hence I founded in order:
constantinople: salt and marble
adrianople: to the north: directly founded on a copper mine
nicea: to the north-west: directly on a gold deposit
antioch: to the west: adjacent to a cotton field
varna: to the south-west: adjacent to wales
ohrid: to the far south-west: 2 hexes from fur
trebizond: to the far west: 2 hexes from a dye
nicomedia: to the far south-east: next to a sugar field

Outside of the "core 4" my cities are fairly distant and isolated, but this was a price I was willing to pay (especially considering my raging barbarians setting) to get these luxury resources before my opponents. Note that there are still significant un-settled areas to the west of trebizond, and the huge area between my capitol and nicomedia to the south west, but these areas have no "new" luxuries beyond what I already have. My plan is to prevent enemy expansion into areas behind my cities and capital by stressing culture expansion and by buying tiles if I need to, and lastly blocking with military units if I have too .. I noticed in prior games how the AI loves to spam settlers into every nook & cranny of unoccupied space no matter how big or small, and I definitely don't want to get any of my cities cut-off.

At this point in the game I've completed the tradition tree and am into piety, which I think is necessary for a culture victory, especially the mandate of heaven which allows 50% excess happiness to be converted to culture. Hence, happiness, faith, and culture are all equally as huge in getting me to culture victory. As my extra religion enhancement I chose pagodas, so I have cathedrals (+3 culture and +2 faith) and pagodas (+2 faith, +2 culture, and +2 happiness) .. right off hand, I can't remember which others I chose, I'm fairly sure I had ancestor worship (+1 culture per shrine). So, I'm looking for a lot of faith to purchase these buildings in all my cities (that's 7 culture for just a cathedral and pagoda per city). Stonehenge (+8 faith) goes far to that plan.

I've had both Russia (far south) and Greece (far north) declare war on me (to hell with expanding into lands they consider theirs); Nicea & Ohrid have been the scenes of massive battles. Nicea is only 7 or 8 hexes from Moscow! So far, three or defending units have been able to hold off waves of attacks (over the 50ish year, so far, war. I've lost something like 4 units killing 40 of theirs, not to mention barbarians which sometimes attack simultaneously).

At this point in the game, I've just got machinery, so I can update my composite bowmen to crossbowmen if needed. I've found that 3 archers or 2 archers + spearmen is incredibly effective in defending cities from assaults, even when they have catapults. However, I have lost cities in prior games, especially in gunpowder era where the number of attacking units seems to increase dramatically, so I need to be prepared for those upcoming eras by doubling the amount of defenders per assaulted city at least.

I've been extremely lucky wonder-wise, and I'm sure I am #1 in wonder creation. I've been able to build stonehenge, petra, chichen itza, pyramids, terracota, hagia sophia, and the oracle in constantinople plus the colossus in adrianople. Having two salt mines and a marble quarry is unbelievable in building wonders, and I'm sure it even beats the 15% bonus that Egypt gets (I've played Egypt a few times).

So, at this point in the game my plan is to focus on defense and going for the culture win which is to complete 5 social policies. I've completed one (tradition) and I'm on the second (Piety). I've been able to build 5/6/7 cathedrals/pagodas, and I had four GP (three prophets and one engineer). Two prophets created and enhanced my religion and the third spread it to three of my other cities. I still need another prophet or missionary to spread it further so I can build more cathedrals/pagodas.

Anyway, I'm still wondering why I'm first in literacy? you can check the demographics in the map 1 attachment.

If anyone has any ideas, criticizms (I welcome anything that improves my gameplay) about my game-plan/game-play other than the literacy thing, let me know.

Those 4 cities are atypically large for that early in the game, and post-Gods & Kings most AIs are less aggressively expansionist than in vanilla. You don't need to have beelined libraries; if you left them until your pop got large and then produced them, they'll double an already large (for the period) amount of science, giving you a big boost rapidly. I rarely have more than 50-60 science per turn before I pop Education, and I usually play on Immortal where I tend to be middling in the tech demographics at the same game stage. You're doing better than that on Emperor, so it's no wonder you're ahead in the science race. The fact that you've expanded so fast (you only show 4 cities but mention that you have several more) is also a contributor, since you grow population faster in smaller cities. Tall empires can eventually approach, and potentially exceed, beaker generation (since you can support 3 pop worth of beakers in one city with the same happiness as a new 1 pop city), but only somewhat later in the game.

Nearly all games (even on Immortal) can snowball into situations like that. I think the major factor is what the AI's condition is like. For example, did they spawn in terrible places, did they settle more than one city, are they in constant war, etc. These things can set the AI back pretty hard.

Of course, the opposite is probably more prevalent. (i.e. Austria with more points than everyone combined)

OmniPotent42 said:

Nearly all games (even on Immortal) can snowball into situations like that. I think the major factor is what the AI's condition is like. For example, did they spawn in terrible places, did they settle more than one city, are they in constant war, etc. These things can set the AI back pretty hard.

Of course, the opposite is probably more prevalent. (i.e. Austria with more points than everyone combined)

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The only thing that I can absolutely put my finger on that seems different about this game than every other game, and I always play with the same settings that I like most ... largest map, 12 civs, raging barbs ... is that there doesn't seem to be as much AI settler spawn. In other games I've played, I've found it near impossible to settle more than 6 or 7 cities using my current strategy (I could build a few more if I really focused and gave up on some wonders) because of AI spawn. I don't know why that's the case in this particular game? I did see one Russian settler (by itself!!) very early on in the game (after I'd built my 4th city), and the same turn I discovered the settler the Russians asked to be friends, I decided to decline, which I rarely do, thinking that that a "yes" might somehow give the russian AI license to settle in my areas, which I definitely didn't want them to do. Funny thing was, the area the settler was in was a ripe area to settle but the settler moved on anyway, the settler did not settle there. I later (maybe 10, 15, 20 turns later) moved some military + a settler of my own in that particular area and there was a barbarian encampment with a flag, I moused over the flag and it said "captured russian settler" .. and I knew it was that particular settler I'd seen before. ... for some reason the AI chose to send an un-escorted settler, chose not to settle in a good area, and then chose instead to retreat into an area that was barbarian held. Normally, AIs settle virtually every nook & cranny and even absolute dud areas like glaciers as have been shown in many other posts, why this particular behavior I haven't a clue?

Another odd thing, there seems to be a large number of city states. Just look at my western border, there's like 3 or 4 in that area. I don't think I've seen so many city states in one game at one time.

Since I took a lot of time to compose my initial post plus screenshots, I'll just update this game from time to time, for the hell of it. I've made to about turn 194ish. Both Russia and Greece offered surrender terms that I decided to take. Funny thing, this was about the 3rd surrender proposal offered. I wish I'd taken a screenshot of the first and second surrender demand, demand being the operative word as they were ridiculous .. they wanted about half my empire and virtually all my luxury goods. Nothing changed between then and the third surrender proposal other than time and a whole lot of dead russian and greeks units, but I had to take a screenshot of this surrender proposal, especially the Russian which I think offered the most stuff for surrender in any game I've played so far (666 gold!!! + stuff)

I also might mention, since it impacts the theme of the thread, that I've finally fallen from being #1 literacy (I'm #3 now) though i'm still not sure why ... maybe other AIs are doing research deals? I did settle a ninth city on another luxury resource, truffles, but I quickly built a library there, so I now have libraries in all my cities and am working on the GL. I'm sure I've built at least one or two universities. I'll also mention that the faith has been flowing in so freely that I've built pagodas & cathedrals in all my cities, I have nothing left to spend faith on except missionaries, prophets, etc.

I just rolled into the gunpowder era, and I've upgraded my one long swordsman to muskateers, I have a buttload of crossbowman, two cataphracts which are now obsolete, two trebuchet, and 5 or 6 pikeman, plus two generals. Not a very large army. I might still be in 8th place militarily, so I'm looking to build more there ... I need to be careful about gunpowder as this is where I've gotten swamped before in a couple of games.

I also might mention that Russia actually declared war on me again, late last night about 15 or 20 turns after the peace treaty, unbelievable, especially considering what they conceded to me in that time, plus the gold which went a long way to upgrading my troops to crossbowman I mean are they stupid or what?

Also, I also might mention that I had a second GE appear, I had two turns left to produce angkor wat, and then I had notre dame lined up in that order in constantinople's que. I chose to wait and use the GE to produce notre dame since I'd be wasting it otherwise. I got to the next turn (angkor wat one turn to go) and clicked "turn" ... wouldn't you know, some other stinking AI civ built angkor wat that exact turn I was due to complete it! boy that really pisses me off if i had used the GE when it was two turns to go I would've got both of them, most likely. I was able to build notre dame: +10 happiness is awesome.

Also, I expect Greece to declare war on me sometime soon as they've just denounced me, hence my military is divided roughly in half with half to the north facing the Greeks and half to the south facing the Russians. I decided that both trebuchets will go south, and when I have a large enough force there, I'll take moscow since I'm so close to it (I double checked, Ohrid is only 5 hexes from moscow). Moscow has something like 2 or 3 whales and a gold, all of which I already have, but these extra resources will give me a lot of extra trade potential. I'm actually also facing the Celts to the west, but I've a salt for 100 gold + 3gpt agreement that's been going on for at least 100 years (boudica has renewed it & we're friends, plus the celts are weak, more so than even the greeks and russians), so I feel confident I won't have any problems on my western flank other than from barbarians.

I'll take a screenshot of the map update later on today when I start play again.

Corporal Kindel said:

The only thing that I can absolutely put my finger on that seems different about this game than every other game, and I always play with the same settings that I like most ... largest map, 12 civs, raging barbs ... is that there doesn't seem to be as much AI settler spawn. In other games I've played, I've found it near impossible to settle more than 6 or 7 cities using my current strategy (I could build a few more if I really focused and gave up on some wonders) because of AI spawn. I don't know why that's the case in this particular game? I did see one Russian settler (by itself!!) very early on in the game (after I'd built my 4th city), and the same turn I discovered the settler the Russians asked to be friends, I decided to decline, which I rarely do, thinking that that a "yes" might somehow give the russian AI license to settle in my areas, which I definitely didn't want them to do. Funny thing was, the area the settler was in was a ripe area to settle but the settler moved on anyway, the settler did not settle there. I later (maybe 10, 15, 20 turns later) moved some military + a settler of my own in that particular area and there was a barbarian encampment with a flag, I moused over the flag and it said "captured russian settler" .. and I knew it was that particular settler I'd seen before. ... for some reason the AI chose to send an un-escorted settler, chose not to settle in a good area, and then chose instead to retreat into an area that was barbarian held. Normally, AIs settle virtually every nook & cranny and even absolute dud areas like glaciers as have been shown in many other posts, why this particular behavior I haven't a clue?

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In my own games I only see AI infinite city spam very occasionally.

Another odd thing, there seems to be a large number of city states. Just look at my western border, there's like 3 or 4 in that area. I don't think I've seen so many city states in one game at one time.

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As long as you're playing a standard game rather than a mod, CS numbers are fixed by map size just like civ numbers. They might be more dispersed than usual, or perhaps in most of your games some get captured/married.

Since I took a lot of time to compose my initial post plus screenshots, I'll just update this game from time to time, for the hell of it. I've made to about turn 194ish. Both Russia and Greece offered surrender terms that I decided to take. Funny thing, this was about the 3rd surrender proposal offered. I wish I'd taken a screenshot of the first and second surrender demand, demand being the operative word as they were ridiculous .. they wanted about half my empire and virtually all my luxury goods. Nothing changed between then and the third surrender proposal other than time and a whole lot of dead russian and greeks units, but I had to take a screenshot of this surrender proposal, especially the Russian which I think offered the most stuff for surrender in any game I've played so far (666 gold!!! + stuff)

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Had Russia got into any other wars in which it was doing badly, or did your military advisor change his assessment of your military strength? If you (or someone else) kill enough enemy units, they'll offer everything in surrender since they decide how they're doing in war just by comparing military strength. Once yours becomes higher, they start offering good deals.

I also might mention, since it impacts the theme of the thread, that I've finally fallen from being #1 literacy (I'm #3 now) though i'm still not sure why ... maybe other AIs are doing research deals?

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You should get notifications when they do. Usual reasons are:

1. If your beaker count isn't increasing, or your tech lead is dependent on Great Scientists, the AI may just have caught up in beakers per turn.

2. If there's only a small difference in techs between you and other AIs (or sometimes if you have the same number of techs), if they've spawned a Great Scientist (by Wonder or accident), or completed Oxford or Rationalism, that will boost them temporarily but you'll soon catch up again, because unlike the human player the AI can't plan around these and maximise its tech advantage.

or, more commonly,

3. You're researching expensive techs, while the AIs getting ahead are researching cheaper techs that even with a lower beaker count they can complete at a faster rate. This happens if the reason you got ahead was basically the same - the AI likes to
'era rush', which means that it tends to tech slowly for a while as it researches expensive techs to get into the next era, and will at some point switch to getting cheaper techs.

4. The AI, being behind in tech, is probably using its spies to tech steal more than you are. While it obviously can't steal more techs from you than you have, if it has a tech or two you've missed itself, or if it spies on another AI civ that has techs you don't, it can get a tech lead that way.

5. Only works for one AI civ, but just as for the human, Interfaith Dialogue can lead to very rapid advances in tech position. Not that common however since AIs never seem to prioritise this belief.

First I wanted to post my current screenshots as I promised earlier, screenshots 6 to 12, I guess they load left to right. The area of my empire is way too big to get in one screenshot, I actually need 4 for the whole empire.

6 westmost area : borders france and greece
7 core area to east : borders some city states
8 southeast extremity : borders some city states & russia
9 southwest extremity : borders russia, city states, and celts.
10 my current demographics
11 another russia surrender screen
12 greek settler spam

Russia again lost the war they declared against me, and offered the concessions shown in screenshot 11. Why they started the war is indecipherable, although not outnumbered they are behind in tech and in size. They seemed to have settled an extreme south part of the map in a snow, tundra, and water zone as can be seen in the two southern screenshots 8 and 9. I contemplated rejecting the surrender, as I still think capturing moscow will end this menace for good, but I feel I'm just short of the manpower needed to do this (4 or 5 crossbowman, 2 trebuchets, 2 muskateer, one cataphract and a couple of pikemen .. that's my entire southern army, and they still have several military units in and around moscow), hence I chose the path of least resistance and accepted their peace terms.

@PhilBowles: thanks for the in-depth replies. BTW, I am playing with the gods & kings expansion with includes the DLC civs. Both boudica and persia are in my current game (just met the persians). Well, I've finally seen some greek settler spam, note screenshot 12 the greek city of Ephesus. This city was settled exactly 4 hexes (the minimum) from two other greek cities, there is absolutely no reason to have built this city because there are no resources, luxury or strategic, anywhere near, not to mention that the 4 hex range is going to overlap city-worked tiles from the other 2 greek cities. Building this city is a complete waste from my POV. Also notice in same screenshot, there is a greek pike and settler plus a greek scout being blockaded by 3 of my units. While the combat units can move over me, the settler cannot, hence my blockade of their spam. Even though there is absolutely no-where for this settler to settle (of use); the stone hex three hexes to the SE is in the middle of a desert and my culture borders are quickly closing the gap (unfortunately though, not quick enough for my comfort, hence the use of my military city-spam-blockaders).

I have a lot of open areas between my cities. This is because the distance between luxury resources was so great. I eventually expect my culture borders to expand and close these "gaps," especially since I'm stressing culture for the culture win, but it doesn't happen quickly enough for my comfort.

Russia was involved in one other war just before they declared war the second time, against the celts, but I have no idea how it went (I assume it went badly because the celts lost no cities). Then they declared war on me shortly after and lost a bunch of units again (maybe a dozen). Again, they sued for peace at my advantage.

As far as my beaker count, it's increasing though slowly. At this point, I've built libraries in all cities, and built universities in perhaps half of them. Some were purchased with cash. I understand what you're saying about all the possible ways the AI can expand research count; I just wish it was possible to know more precisely where they are gaining their research from. I haven't noticed any research agreement notifications from AI, but to be honest I haven't been paying that close attention to all the news blurbs (I guess I need to watch those more closely). I did get 2 of my techs "stolen", greece got machinery and the french got something (can't remember what now). If I can build the kremlin, that should help a lot vs espionage. I also just completed the porcelin tower which gave me a GS, so I should be getting a little boost here soon as far as research goes.

It would also be nice to know if there was some metrics to shoot for, as far as the different VCs. For example, how much culture should I be at (optimally) by turn 100, 150, 200 etc for a culture win. I'm around turn 220ish now and I have 285 culture per turn. I've filled out 2 SPs completely and I'm mostly done with the third (tradition, Piety, and I'm almost done with commerce).

I've expanded my military by getting 4 or 5 more muskateers than I had before. I've also upgraded everything as far as my current tech advances, and I'm working on chemistry which will upgrade trebuchets to cannons. I currently have 10 or 12 crossbowmen, 2 knights (upgraded my cataphracts), 4 or 5 lancers (upgraded pikeman), 5 or 6 muskateers, one scout, 2 trebuchets, and I built one "droman" which just got upgraded to a galeass to defend 9 cities. I'm ranked #4 now on the "soldier" demographic, so I feel a bit safer if greece or russia should declare war on me again.

By the way, one of my cities changed religion: from my religion to no religion (but heavily influenced by the greek religion). I decided to use some of my "faith" to buy an inquisitor (first time buying this unit) and I was only able to use it once, though it cost the same as a missionary (240 apiece for each). It seems to me this is a waste: a missionary is always better since the price is the same and you can use it twice. Am I not seeing something here, it just doesn't seem like an inquisitor is worth it?

I think the reason why you can only use the inquisitor once is because it only serve one function: that is to completely root out a competing religion inside one of your cities that host your own religion.

What difficulty you playing?

Corporal Kindel said:

As far as my beaker count, it's increasing though slowly. At this point, I've built libraries in all cities, and built universities in perhaps half of them. Some were purchased with cash. I understand what you're saying about all the possible ways the AI can expand research count; I just wish it was possible to know more precisely where they are gaining their research from.

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If you see in the demographics that a different civ has suddenly taken the lead, or that the lead civ has jumped by several techs, that's probably a sign they're artificially inflating their science - which means GSes, Rationalism finisher, spying, or rushing cheap techs. High beaker counts don't result in that pattern, and that's the only long-term threat an AI civ will present (except Interfaith Dialogue, which can lead to rapid jumps and can provide a more or less game-long research boost, but you can easily tell which civ has that from the religion screen), as you'll always catch up otherwise with a higher beaker count (and judicious use of spies).

It's not ideal and you need a bit of detective work and deduction, but you can usually at least estimate why the leading AIs (and when you're 2nd or 3rd in tech they're the only ones to worry about) are getting ahead.

Oh yes, there's a sixth option (and a definite threat): At some points in the game an AI heading for science victory will spend a few turns now and then producing Research in the capital (and possibly other cities, I usually only spy on the capital). Spies can catch this by viewing the capital, but as far as I'm aware if a civ is the tech leader and has started doing this, the only real option you have is to start worrying.

It would also be nice to know if there was some metrics to shoot for, as far as the different VCs. For example, how much culture should I be at (optimally) by turn 100, 150, 200 etc for a culture win. I'm around turn 220ish now and I have 285 culture per turn. I've filled out 2 SPs completely and I'm mostly done with the third (tradition, Piety, and I'm almost done with commerce).

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Not sure what the optimal figure would be for culture. As far as science is concerned, a level which lets me win at Immortal (as long as I'm specialising for GS production as a non-Babylonian civ, and discounting bonus beakers from Interfaith Dialogue) is around 150-175 by turn 200; I can rarely produce more than 40-50 before I have Education.

By the way, one of my cities changed religion: from my religion to no religion (but heavily influenced by the greek religion). I decided to use some of my "faith" to buy an inquisitor (first time buying this unit) and I was only able to use it once, though it cost the same as a missionary (240 apiece for each). It seems to me this is a waste: a missionary is always better since the price is the same and you can use it twice. Am I not seeing something here, it just doesn't seem like an inquisitor is worth it?

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Inquisitors have a passive effect that missionaries don't. An Inquisitor you don't expend who's in or adjacent to a city prevents it from being converted to a religion other than the inquisitor's (either by a missionary or a prophet, or from natural expansion); you only want to expend an inquisitor if a foreign religion gets established. This is, incidentally, also a way to limit the effectiveness of an enemy religion with Interfaith Dialogue, since it can't be used on your cities with inquisitors (though as the AI doesn't make any use of inquisitors except to expend them to remove unwanted faiths, a civ can still farm science from missionarying other AIs).

PhilBowles said:

Inquisitors have a passive effect that missionaries don't. An Inquisitor you don't expend who's in or adjacent to a city prevents it from being converted to a religion other than the inquisitor's (either by a missionary or a prophet, or from natural expansion); you only want to expend an inquisitor if a foreign religion gets established. This is, incidentally, also a way to limit the effectiveness of an enemy religion with Interfaith Dialogue, since it can't be used on your cities with inquisitors (though as the AI doesn't make any use of inquisitors except to expend them to remove unwanted faiths, a civ can still farm science from missionarying other AIs).

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I have had a city converted with an inquisitor present. I didn't see a foreign missionary or prophet, so I believe it was by natural expansion. I had settled the city on a remote continent from the rest of my own civ in order to claim a natural wonder and other resources that I needed. (I sent along a missionary and an inquisitor to first establish my religion and then protect it.) The rest of that continent was occupied by the Celts....

Der Golem said:

What difficulty you playing?

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Emperor, huge map, raging barbarians

PhilBowles said:

If you see in the demographics that a different civ has suddenly taken the lead, or that the lead civ has jumped by several techs, that's probably a sign they're artificially inflating their science - which means GSes, Rationalism finisher, spying, or rushing cheap techs. High beaker counts don't result in that pattern, and that's the only long-term threat an AI civ will present (except Interfaith Dialogue, which can lead to rapid jumps and can provide a more or less game-long research boost, but you can easily tell which civ has that from the religion screen), as you'll always catch up otherwise with a higher beaker count (and judicious use of spies).

It's not ideal and you need a bit of detective work and deduction, but you can usually at least estimate why the leading AIs (and when you're 2nd or 3rd in tech they're the only ones to worry about) are getting ahead.

Oh yes, there's a sixth option (and a definite threat): At some points in the game an AI heading for science victory will spend a few turns now and then producing Research in the capital (and possibly other cities, I usually only spy on the capital). Spies can catch this by viewing the capital, but as far as I'm aware if a civ is the tech leader and has started doing this, the only real option you have is to start worrying.



Not sure what the optimal figure would be for culture. As far as science is concerned, a level which lets me win at Immortal (as long as I'm specialising for GS production as a non-Babylonian civ, and discounting bonus beakers from Interfaith Dialogue) is around 150-175 by turn 200; I can rarely produce more than 40-50 before I have Education.



Inquisitors have a passive effect that missionaries don't. An Inquisitor you don't expend who's in or adjacent to a city prevents it from being converted to a religion other than the inquisitor's (either by a missionary or a prophet, or from natural expansion); you only want to expend an inquisitor if a foreign religion gets established. This is, incidentally, also a way to limit the effectiveness of an enemy religion with Interfaith Dialogue, since it can't be used on your cities with inquisitors (though as the AI doesn't make any use of inquisitors except to expend them to remove unwanted faiths, a civ can still farm science from missionarying other AIs).

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I haven't been able until now to get anything from the demographics screen because most of the empires have been unmet. However, I recently met the Persians, and finally I've found my #1 literacy player, so I know now where (whom) I need to focus my espionage & deduction work on.

That's very interesting about the inquisitor, I didn't know it had that passive benefit. I've noticed that the cost of faith buying goes up dramatically. I've bought 9 cathedrals and pagodas, and when I bought my first missionary it was 200, 2nd was 240 as was the inquisitor, I was going faith purchase a fourth time when I noticed the price was now 340 .... that's a pretty dramatic increase there! I've gotten several prophets now, but not by buying on my own, I went to buy my first it was 1200 (I think), some time later I was checking prices again and it was like 1820 ... that's an unbelievably steep price increase there!!! I decided to use my prophet to create a holy site because I got something like 4culture, 4gold, and 6faith for it, which is awesome, I went ahead and bought the next prophet for 1820 and did the same in another city ... I don't know if that's the best use of prophets (or should they be used to convert foreign cities?), but that's like 14 points of important resource generation even if it's not food/hammers.

I decided to place one of my spies on the persian city, at this point I only see one city, since I haven't scouted but a small portion of the map, which I think is typical for huge maps. Although, I just completed the commerce SP and one of benefits was a fee admiral who I am now using to scout (he has 6 movement and can move in the open ocean), not to mention 2 city states were looking for Great admirals, so became friends with them.
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I'll definitely have to make a note of what the Persians are researching in their capital and what their beaker count is. Where do I look for the interfaith dialogue on the religion screen?

I uploaded the maps from my position that I started last night, turn 224, I'll post again showing turn 240 which is where I saved at the end of the night last night:
13: extreme west
14: extreme south (a good view of where the russians settled)
15: demographics
16: religion
17: diplomacy
18: economics

Russia decided to offer me a friendship agreement which I went ahead and agreed to, which I thought was funny given their previous two DOWs against me. They also decided to declare war against one of the city states which is located just south of my southeastern most city, nicomedia. This city state also has the gibralter special wonder, and I don't want the Russians to have that, so I decided to grant them 500 bucks, and I also moved one of my military units there in an attempt to block Russian military maneuvers, which succeeded well.

I can't wait to see what the production will look like in constantinople once I finish the ironworks. I've gotten so many of the wonders it's not funny, although I did get screwed on angkow wat as I mentioned in the other post. This is the first game in which I've gotten on the order of 90% of the wonders. I think salt mines are the best luxury resource, since they're the only ones that grant both +1 food and +1 production, also in combination with the marble quarry is just awesome.

My culture borders have expanded quite a bit, and I had several golden ages due to happiness as well as some of the wonders which really boost all types of production.

I've finally got some espionage going against the #1 science player in my game who are the persians, I'll also met the maya and sent a second spy to their capital. So the next series of screenshots are of turn 247, I got:

19: core empire + north front facing greeks
20: south front facing russians
21: Persopolis spy view
22: Palinque spy view
23: constantinople city view for comparison
24: west front showing french city spam
25: demographics

It's interesting to compare the output of these three cities:
constantinople persopolis palinque
food: 23 11 9
production: 84 47 14
gold: 84 79 35
science: 51 61 111
faith: 26 2 8
culture: 67 16 17

I expected to be smashing everyone on production and culture, but I'm beating everyone on all the other things except science which is disturbing, especially the mayans (who aren't in #1 science, but have 111 science, almost double my amount). How the hell are the mayans cranking out so much science? ... I see 14 jungle tiles being worked (that's 14 science), they also have library (+1 science per 2 people), NC (+2 science per jungle and +3 science + 50% science), university (+33% science and +2 science on jungle, no slots being worked), and observatory (+ 50% science), palace provided +3 science.

So, I see 14 being worked +7 for library +3 palace +3 NC = 27 x 1.33 for university = 36 and X 1.5 for observatory = 49 ... this doesn't seem to add up to me? I know they might have a couple more jungle being worked in the fog zones, but there's obviously a lot of overlap also as they build cities so close together and tiles are being worked by other cities too.

Also, it's worth pointing out the city spam is now picking up with the west screenshot; note the three french cities built in virtually the same area. Chartres is a French city, but now taken by the celts, apparently those two are at war now. Also on the south screenshot you can see another bottled-up russian settler who, no doubt, would settle the area just to the west of varna, even though there is nothing there.

One of the city states granted me a cavalry unit and also I'd gotten a choku-nu (spelling?) granted to me about 50 years ago (don't think I mentioned that before) which is basically a crossbowman.

It's been a great game for wonders; I'm not going to get big ben as the persians have 5 turns to go, but if I get a great engineer (it seems constantinople is close to getting one) in the next 3 turns, I'll rush build it.

I purchased a couple of tiles with money that were about to be contested, also I upgraded my 2 knights to cavalry, I have 3 of those now with the city state grant.