Why the warmonger penalty is unrealistic...

Magma_Dragoon said:

And I don't know what you mean by that The assertion I'm making is that diplomacy should not boil down to trying to get an AI to declare war so you can take all it's cities.

Click to expand...

And I said "you get a penalty if you take out *any* of his (or his CS allies) cities, not just if your wipe him out." and you seemed to have ignored that. Is taking any city the same as taking all his cities?

Magma_Dragoon said:

Furthermore, the warmonger hit for declaring war is very small. Taking cities is where most of the penalty lies.

Click to expand...

That is what I am objecting to. The guy that starts the war (after forward settling on you then denouncing) gets almost no penalty, while I get a large penalty for taking the city he jammed up in my face. A far away AI who has forward settled on you may be inclined to permawar you if you don't take any of his cities.

Sure, you can leave his city there and use it for target practice, but that seems kind of sploity too.

I've been reading this for a couple of days now and decided to step out of the shadow.

In my opinion, Magma, this is where numbers get in the way of immersion. Meaning: there could be ways to switch off warmonger penalties with one particular civ at least. Otherwise it's like this - you trade with Siam, sign DoF, send caravans their way, liberate their workers from barbs, befriend their friends and then comes Shaka, with 99 impi. OK, we kill his army and take two out of three of his cities including the capital. Next thing you know Siam denounces you, along with the world and then eventually DoW's you. Along with the world. Worst case scenario, i know, but it happens.

Personally, i'd prefer to see DoF as an ultimate document cementing friendly relations. To the point they don't care if you raze/puppet an entire civ. (And even support you in some way) I'd also prefer DoF being much harder to achive than it is right now.

Sure you can destroy Shaka's army without taking cities, but we both know what's going to happen after that. (99 more impi in 30 turns) DoW'ing your friend can be made to produce 300% the effect compared to what it is now, to offset the possible warmongering exploits. That way, at least, AI won't act like a 12 year old diplomat, sending you letters with dead animals enclosed, every other turn. And people (builders) will be able to have a faction of states, loyal to them, no matter what.

Anyway, being the fun challenge as it is now, i feel that diplomacy can be re - balanced to become more immersive, provided, of course, it doesn't become less challenging as a result.

Moriarte said:

Personally, i'd prefer to see DoF as an ultimate document cementing friendly relations. To the point they don't care if you raze/puppet an entire civ. (And even support you in some way) I'd also prefer DoF being much harder to achive than it is right now.

Click to expand...

At the moment, if your buddy suggests you go to war with civ B, do you get a WM penalty with your friend every time you take one of civ B's cities? I suspect so. I've read that the penalty is halved if you are both at war with B. Suffering any penalty with a friend for doing what they asked seems absurd.

That's another thing. The lack of documentation. The details of how diplomacy works are opaque. You cannot just play intuitively because so many of the details are unrealistic and sometimes the opposite of real life. For 99% of real life history there wasn't a huge diplo penalty for taking territory in wars. In fact military success was a source of national prestige. And your friends certainly didn't get mad at you for beating up their enemies.

I've managed to keep Siam friendly when destroying another civ or two. This game in question I had even stolen a worker from him, and I managed to keep him happy while razing Germany and the Celts. DoF with your friend isn't enough, you need to be friends with his friends too, and denounce his enemies, to cement the superfriend block in place.

That an AI might forward settle and then sit on two or three cities is a possibility I had not considered. I suppose if I'm boxed in by this city, I'd just bite the bullet and know that Siam or Ethiopia will hate me. Then again, I can form a block with the Gustavs and the Attilas on the map and we can bond over how much we love smashing those goodie-goodie jerks.

If I were not boxed in by this forward settling and I really wanted the location, I'd expand in the other direction, then go about building a coalition against the offender. The warmonger penalty is proportional to the diplomatic relations with the attacker and the defender. Bribing the forward settler to attack someone he has a dof with is a surefire way to make him the guy everybody hates. Tack on an embargo and he can't even get that tiny bit of positive diplo with your friends.

In the situation Moriarte described, I can think of a way out. Beat Shaka's army and make peace, then bribe him to attack Siam. Once he takes a Siamese city, you attack. Burn or puppet a few Zulu cities, and liberate the one(s) he took from Siam. Some times that isn't possible. So when Siam (inevitably) denounces you, you denounce right back. If you have done your diplo job well, your mutual friends will like you more than him, and the coalition now has a new target.

Do you always give in to your friends' requests?

Not always, but usually. "You helped us" is bright green and lasts forever.

qemist said:

Do you always give in to your friends' requests?

Click to expand...

If you don't you take a permanent diplo hit with pretty much everyone not just that civ. I'm careful about with whom I'll sign a DoF and tend to keep spare luxuries handy (since that's the first priority when they come begging). It annoys me that when the AI has a stronger empire than you they'll still say "things aren't going well over here, could you lend a hand"... when they've got more happiness, higher income and plenty of gold they still act like they need aid. And they need to remove that "I'll return the favor later" line since the AI never will give you handouts.

Back to warmonger penalties: In my current game, I encountered Japan, Morocco and Austria on my continent. Surprisingly, Japan was truly friendly (not just faking it like they normally do) and was the first to ask for a DoF. Since we were fairly close, I agreed. Later on Morocco approached for DoF. I was quite peaceful at the start (playing Mongols) since I needed to establish my infrastructure.

After a while both Morocco and Japan signed DoF. Austria was on the far eastern end of the continent and kept to herself. No wars happened for a while... then Morocco had the audacity to forward settle me (plopped a city right where I was going to put my fourth one between my capital and my second city - which I did put a bit away but I'd found the Fountain of Youth so I needed to settle near it). So I let the DoF expire then moved my units toward his city. Had the pop up about troops on the border so I selected Declare War. Using warriors, archers and a few chariot archers I managed to wipe out his forces and capture the city (Major penalty) then I accepted his peace request.

Austria and Morocco listed as having "early concerns". After a short while, Morocco's faded (they forgive modest warmongering while Austria hates warmongers). I decided I needed a 6th city, so I attacked Syndey (CS was pretty close to my second city at the Fountain of Yutes and they had access to Pearls). With my now experienced warriors, archers and chariot archers I made quick work of them since I got +30% bonus on top of my promos (and the Khan's medic ability combined with Faster Healing and March made my units almost unkillable). Syndey listed as Extreme warmonger penalty.

The next turn I was denounced by Austria (considered me a "global threat") while Morocco only listed as "seeing the potential threat of my warmongering". Japan kept renewing DoF.

A while later, Morocco dropped to "early concerns". Shortly after this decay, Japan asked me to join them in a war against Austria. I accepted and sent my scout division over there to farm some coin pillaging and maybe slaughtering a few wounded units (had full Honor). I actually found a level 1 city along the coast I was able to sack (Major penalty)... unfortunately, Japan negotiated peace the turn before I took the city, but I wasn't willing to relent until I sacked it (I'd made a few early misteps and was in bad economic shape... needed the coin from sacking the city since barbarian camps were getting scarce).

Morocco became guarded and listed me as "global threat". They didn't denounce me though. Japan let the DoF decay and after quite a while (was struggling into late Classical) Japan finally DoWed me... followed immediately by Morocco. Both listed as "seeing my potential threat" (yes, Morocco's penalty had decayed a bit by this time). Due to the terrain advantage (heavy jungle surrounding my starting location - great for defense but I was dead last in Literacy midway through Ancient) I was able to butcher large armies from both empires (and most of my units were obsolete because I was having funding issues and trying to get Markets up and running - that changed with the war since I started raking in the cash with each unit I slaughtered, my army is now the strongest on the continent and fully upgraded and I've just entered Medieval).

I have razed one Moroccan city (Minor penalty), captured one of Morocco's CS allies (Major penalty) and just took Marrakesh (Minor penalty)... neither Japan nor Morocco consider me a "global threat" yet (matter of fact, Japan now only has "early concerns" oddly enough). I'm running a slight economic deficit (-10 to -20 per turn) due to lack of external trade routes but I'm making plenty of money from pillaging, plunder and slaughtering units so I have no economic concerns right now. Plenty of happiness (Fountain helped greatly, but I now have a coliseum in all my cities) but I'm holding off on more captures until courthouses are built.

I have no intention of stopping this war until I own the continent (hopefully before explorers from the other continent arrive since all the unmet empires are 2-3 techs ahead of me as of last report and they all have 2-4 wonders each). After I finish with Morocco, I'm turning my full attention to Japan... then Austria... I'll probably sack a few more CS along the way. Now I'm not "steamrolling" them, it's slow, methodical advance. I spent quite a few turns whittling down Marrakesh with Chariot Archers while my melee units held a defensive line with archers behind to slaughter advancing units. By the time I had Marrakesh down to 1 hp, I'd slaughtered three waves of Moroccan defenders and just had a Horseman ride in and it had been so long since my last city capture that most of the warmonger hit had fully decayed from taking that CS.

Of course, I will pick up the pace in a bit. Either nearing Renaissance or simply getting Keshiks will put me in full battle frenzy until the continent is mine.

Barghaest said:

If you don't you take a permanent diplo hit with pretty much everyone not just that civ.ng Keshiks will put me in full battle frenzy until the continent is mine.

Click to expand...

You sure about that bro? I usually hit the GTFO button and it doesn't seem to hurt me. I don't win much tho'

Barghaest said:

If you don't you take a permanent diplo hit with pretty much everyone not just that civ.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about that. I've not had problems politely saying no when they ask for obscene requests, like 200+ GPT, etc. However, you will take a diplo hit for an arrogant reply though if I remember right.

They removed the big penalty for refusing a request awhile back, and I think made the benefit for accepting a bit bigger.

Magma_Dragoon said:

They removed the big penalty for refusing a request awhile back, and I think made the benefit for accepting a bit bigger.

Click to expand...

Ah, was still going on pre-BNW info then. I hadn't refused a friend's requests since pre-G&K so wasn't aware of that. My mistake. Good change since you can't beg the AI for free stuff it makes DoF less annoying.

I wish there was some modifier for defensive wars.

in my last game, half the world backstabbed me and DoW'd me all at once (prior to that, I had DoF's with the civs and had been playing a peaceful game). by turn 2-3, I had decimated Russia's army before they could reach my shores with my submarines, offered a peace settlement, and was declined. every turn after that, I started knocking out all the 1-tile cities Russia had built surrounding my empire, offering peace after every city conquest, and perpetually getting denied.

but despite the fact that I was the one who was backstabbed and I gave my enemies every opportunity to declare peace, I was the one getting slammed as a global threat.

(Russia was my neighbor... the other civs who DoW'd me were on the other side of the globe. I mostly ignored them except sending over a couple subs to destroy their navy, plunder trade routes, and pillage ocean tiles)

darden said:

in my last game, half the world backstabbed me and DoW'd me all at once (prior to that, I had DoF's with the civs and had been playing a peaceful game). by turn 2-3, I had decimated Russia's army before they could reach my shores with my submarines, offered a peace settlement, and was declined. every turn after that, I started knocking out all the 1-tile cities Russia had built surrounding my empire, offering peace after every city conquest, and perpetually getting denied.

Click to expand...

Main cause of this situation is insufficient military units. I seldom get DoWed from Modern onwards because I field the largest military. To avoid every civ jumping you, keep an eye on Military ranking in Demographics. If you're in the bottom 25%, the AI will DoW you regardless of friend status because you seem like easy prey.

Personally, I think they AI should calculate human opponents as having 2-3x the pointy stick rating since even being in 10th place out of 10 civs, I can still slaughter the AI chain zergs handily because of their poor tactics.

Barghaest said:

Main cause of this situation is insufficient military units. I seldom get DoWed from Modern onwards because I field the largest military. To avoid every civ jumping you, keep an eye on Military ranking in Demographics. If you're in the bottom 25%, the AI will DoW you regardless of friend status because you seem like easy prey.

Click to expand...

And that's the crux of the whole affair. Friendships really don't seem to mean much these days.

Barghaest said:

Personally, I think they AI should calculate human opponents as having 2-3x the pointy stick rating since even being in 10th place out of 10 civs, I can still slaughter the AI chain zergs handily because of their poor tactics.

Click to expand...

that seems like it would be reasonable. I feel like they should take into account gold as well.

in my situation in that last game, I was fielding a very small military. I had artillery in each city, 2 submarines guarding my border with Russia (since my diplomat told me that Catherine was plotting against me), and that's it. but I was sitting on a colossal pile of gold, so as soon as war was declared, I was able to instantly buy up a fleet of destroyers, battleships, and nuclear subs (this was a large island game)

I handily kicked Catherine's butt back to Siberia (at the start of the war, she had 7 cities... she was down to 3 when I won the space race) and the Chinese, Germans, Incans, Swedes were non-factors (being on the other side of the globe from me/Russia, I mostly just harassed them with subs but didn't attack any cities while my navy was busy laying the smackdown on Russia). but it was still a bit galling that *I* was the one backstabbed by 5 countries and the non-parties in the war all had negative reactions towards me being a warmonger when I happily would have set a peace treaty if the AI had been willing/able.

Barghaest said:

Main cause of this situation is insufficient military units. I seldom get DoWed from Modern onwards because I field the largest military. To avoid every civ jumping you, keep an eye on Military ranking in Demographics. If you're in the bottom 25%, the AI will DoW you regardless of friend status because you seem like easy prey.

Personally, I think they AI should calculate human opponents as having 2-3x the pointy stick rating since even being in 10th place out of 10 civs, I can still slaughter the AI chain zergs handily because of their poor tactics.

Click to expand...

This is the same reason why ais used to Dow in civilization 4 too. In bnw, getting a military has been a greater challenge when culture, tourism and caravans/cargo ships come in because they also require more resources.
The ai doesn't always dow only when you have the lowest military. I've won science victories with Immortal difficulty and I had last ranking in military and the Ai never made a Dow. The only time that the Ai made a Dow was when they saw that I was closer to the victory. By that time the Ai was already using many obsolete units.

darden said:

I wish there was some modifier for defensive wars.

in my last game, half the world backstabbed me and DoW'd me all at once (prior to that, I had DoF's with the civs and had been playing a peaceful game). by turn 2-3, I had decimated Russia's army before they could reach my shores with my submarines, offered a peace settlement, and was declined. every turn after that, I started knocking out all the 1-tile cities Russia had built surrounding my empire, offering peace after every city conquest, and perpetually getting denied.

Click to expand...

There is a 10 turn cool down on peace
You captured cities
The penalty you accumulated is probably fairly minor (early concerns)

One thing that I haven't seen discussed much is how the game has changed since earlier versions is that in earlier versions, the intent of the game certainly was to create a large empire, even if you were not going for domination. In Civ 5, the intent has turned around 180 degrees, where the main winning strategy is to build a small country and then "play nice", unless domination is your chosen path of victory. Before you were trying to be Alexander the Great, now you are trying to be a member of the EU. Call me bloodthirsty, but I liked it better before.

Bulldog Bats said:

In Civ 5, the intent has turned around 180 degrees, where the main winning strategy is to build a small country and then "play nice", unless domination is your chosen path of victory. Before you were trying to be Alexander the Great, now you are trying to be a member of the EU. Call me bloodthirsty, but I liked it better before.

Click to expand...

+1, too passive.

I have made games where I am against teams of other civs and domination being the only victory condition and still the AI will not fight back or try to win at all. Just rolls over and asks for peace.

I've never had this issue in BNW. As long as I start trading again and play nice eventually some other Civ's start to like me again. I think proximity plays a part in the calculation, if the target of your aggression was neighboring another Civ, or the angry Civ is close to you - it takes longer to be friendly again.

I've also noticed that if you attack extremely weak Civ's that are like an era behind you - the world hates you more than if you have an more balanced conflict with a stronger enemy.