Religious wars/intolerance

Throughout history there have been violent expansions and replacements of religions - but in AND very often the religions founded first stay the most dominant until the end of time (literally)

I think it would be interesting if, especcially for the medieval period or the period after the discovery of intolerance, there would be some incentive for a more aggressive religous expansion by AI and player, to remove religions. At the moment it is just too benificial to be tolerant.. (which is a dilemma - because historically tolerat societies were more successful - but just not that common )

A few suggestions (as starting points for discussion)

- First to discover intolerance receives three great generals
- More random events calling for holy wars
- for some civics: diplomatic penalties for being at peace with infidels
- some religious buildings cause unhappiness in cities with multiple religions

I think you understand what I am playing at...

youmakemefart said:

Throughout history there have been violent expansions and replacements of religions - but in AND very often the religions founded first stay the most dominant until the end of time (literally)

I think it would be interesting if, especcially for the medieval period or the period after the discovery of intolerance, there would be some incentive for a more aggressive religous expansion by AI and player, to remove religions. At the moment it is just too benificial to be tolerant.. (which is a dilemma - because historically tolerat societies were more successful - but just not that common )

A few suggestions (as starting points for discussion)

- First to discover intolerance receives three great generals
- More random events calling for holy wars
- for some civics: diplomatic penalties for being at peace with infidels
- some religious buildings cause unhappiness in cities with multiple religions

I think you understand what I am playing at...

Click to expand...

Doesn't Inquisitions Option cover most of this already?

JosEPh

I think the essential point here is to create some kind of mechanism for new religions to occasionally rapidly expand...

I feel like if you play with Revolutions mod, it covers most of your points here.

^What Afforess said.

If you go into Revolution.ini you can change the modifiers for various things. I have religion modifier up to 4, along with general modfier at 3 and human modifier at 2.5 and some other stuff. Makes non-state holy cities a bit rebellious. I bet you could get some pretty interesting effects if you turned it up more (assuming it doesn't all become barb revolts).

MechatronicJazz said:

^What Afforess said.

If you go into Revolution.ini you can change the modifiers for various things. I have religion modifier up to 4, along with general modfier at 3 and human modifier at 2.5 and some other stuff. Makes non-state holy cities a bit rebellious. I bet you could get some pretty interesting effects if you turned it up more (assuming it doesn't all become barb revolts).

Click to expand...

Yeah, I've recently increased a bit revolutions values but I think I might increase those related to religions too.

IMO civics should also be tweaked.
Something like:
2 / non-state religion for State Church and Free Church
4 / non-state religion for Intolerant
This would encourage players more to drive non-state religions out of their cities, unless having a lot of bonuses.

Sogroon said:

IMO civics should also be tweaked.
Something like:
2 / non-state religion for State Church and Free Church
4 / non-state religion for Intolerant
This would encourage players more to drive non-state religions out of their cities, unless having a lot of bonuses.

Click to expand...

But what if you wanted the non state religions in all your cities? Or is this applicable Only to using REV?

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

But what if you wanted the non state religions in all your cities? Or is this applicable Only to using REV?

JosEPh

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If you wanted them there, don't run Intolerant then
Wanting those religions there is the exact opposite of intolerance

Rezca said:

If you wanted them there, don't run Intolerant then
Wanting those religions there is the exact opposite of intolerance

Click to expand...

Exactly.
If you want to have many religions run a civic with a weak state-church (Prophets), a state-church completely subdued to the ruler (Divine Cult)* or one that has no state church but treats all religions equally (Secular).

Strong state-churches always oppressed others thus causing


*maybe this way we could finally make a good use of DC. No for non-state religions but has - war like Intolerant.

What do you say?

Sogroon said:

Exactly.
If you want to have many religions run a civic with a weak state-church (Prophets), a state-church completely subdued to the ruler (Divine Cult)* or one that has no state church but treats all religions equally (Secular).

Strong state-churches always oppressed others thus causing

Click to expand...

Right - that's why Secular/Free Religion was always the best civic for civilizations saturated with many religions. Intolerance by nature hates and scorns any religion other than their own (Like good old Isabella in BTS ) so it's counter-productive to 'want a ton of religions' in your cities. You know full well by running such a civic that you're going to be dealing with anger in your cities.


*Edit* Honestly though, I do feel there shouldn't be a lot of civics with heavy penalties for having an abundance of religions in a city. Intolerant and Atheism are a given, State/Free Church maybe to an extent, but it probably shouldn't be *too* heavy - since there's quite a lot of religions in AND (However, there's also a lot of sources of in the game to counter it!) but it should definitely not be as severe as Intolerant.

Well, my 2 and 4 numbers were rather random. Just a start off to. Needs tweaking.

Sogroon said:

Well, my 2 and 4 numbers were rather random. Just a start off to. Needs tweaking.

Click to expand...

Much tweaking

In base Civ that would mean +8 assuming every religion was present in the city and you were running say Islam. There's even more religions in AND so that would be a max of like 18 or 20

Now granted I don't often see tons of religions in dozens of cities (Usually only when conquering AI nations that had open borders with lots of people or a nation that went crazy with founding them) but the potential min/max levels of anger from just having them there would need to be kept in mind. Which is why I was a bit wary when I saw the +2 on those heh.


On another note, I like how some of the AI leaders though have different takes on religion. Isabella and Justinian get very 'colorful' if you're running a different religion than they are, and definitely "don't take lightly" to you refusing their request of changing religions. Others don't really seem to care even if you refuse their request (I think Stalin was one that wouldn't care less if you ran another religion and just shrugs it off if you refuse to switch)

I try to keep an eye open for switching to Secular by cultivating at least one monastery per religion in my empire. However, in my latest game, I built the Gutenberg Bible wonder and suddenly Hellenic dominance shot from 31% (after a lot of missionaries to foreign powers) to 61%! Now I'm considering becoming Intolerant for the first time ever.

Rezca said:

Much tweaking

In base Civ that would mean +8 assuming every religion was present in the city and you were running say Islam. There's even more religions in AND so that would be a max of like 18 or 20

Now granted I don't often see tons of religions in dozens of cities (Usually only when conquering AI nations that had open borders with lots of people or a nation that went crazy with founding them) but the potential min/max levels of anger from just having them there would need to be kept in mind. Which is why I was a bit wary when I saw the +2 on those heh.


On another note, I like how some of the AI leaders though have different takes on religion. Isabella and Justinian get very 'colorful' if you're running a different religion than they are, and definitely "don't take lightly" to you refusing their request of changing religions. Others don't really seem to care even if you refuse their request (I think Stalin was one that wouldn't care less if you ran another religion and just shrugs it off if you refuse to switch)

Click to expand...

I rarely see more than 4 religions in a city. Even it is HARD to have more than 4
E.g. I ran Kemetism for Temple of Seth (military prod. bonus), Hellenist Gymnasia for free promotion, Asatru the same reason, in the Confucian holy city (when it had the free Moral promotion.). I often lost Hellenism or Asatru before I managed to build their cathedrals.
==> I don't think 2 is too big for Free-Ch. and State-Ch. With many religions this would push you toward the decision: Switch to Intolerant (to get rid of the pagans) or switch to Prophets or Divine Cult.
IMO in history the Roman Empire was running Divine Cult, that was tolerant to other religions as long as they recognized the emperor as a god. Other example is India which seems for me running Prophets.

Neither do I think 4 for Intolerant is to high. The heathens become angry knowing their faith is oppressed and is about to be banned.

But I'm only brainstorming. I wonder what the devs. say

Sogroon said:

I rarely see more than 4 religions in a city. Even it is HARD to have more than 4

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That is exactly the issue - by c.a. 1 AD Kemetism, Zorotastrism, Hellenism, Judaism, Confucianism etc. are already so established it makes is virtually impossible for other, newer religions to replace them...

... which is exactly what happened in history...

I have NEVER played a game of AND where later religions such as Christianity, Taoism, Islam have become relevant on a large scale, replacing other faiths... Even WITH the "region decay option

Especcially Christianity and Islam where spread rather violently - so woudln't it be good to increase the likelyhood of this happening with the later religions?

youmakemefart said:

That is exactly the issue - by c.a. 1 AD Kemetism, Zorotastrism, Hellenism, Judaism, Confucianism etc. are already so established it makes is virtually impossible for other, newer religions to replace them...

... which is exactly what happened in history...

I have NEVER played a game of AND where later religions such as Christianity, Taoism, Islam have become relevant on a large scale, replacing other faiths... Even WITH the "region decay option

Especcially Christianity and Islam where spread rather violently - so woudln't it be good to increase the likelyhood of this happening with the later religions?

Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment, although I have seen Christianity and Taoism become important in games, though rarely, and never Islam. The problem is, as you said, they require aggressive spread, and AI rarely have interest in putting in the effort. I may have some ideas on how to increase the presence of newer religions without drastic game play /mechanics changes if mod developers have interest in this topic:


--Allow inquisitors under state church and Divine Cult. Intolerant is too terrible to bother running so there's no good way to get access to inquisitors to remove unwanted religions.
--Reduce movement points on missionaries from early religions and increase on later religions. Maybe allow Islam and Christian missionaries to spread religion to 2 cities?
--Add a World Wonder that's available to later religions that automatically spreads the State Religion to captured cities.
-Another wonder that purges all non-state religions from captured cities, or add as additional effect to above wonder
--Allow inquisitors to purge religions from vassal cities(not sure if this is already possible)
--Tweak newer religions to have better benefits to entice people to changes (more happiness, improved yields, etc.)

The Gutenberg Bible wonder spreads your state religion to all connected cities. If you're playing with large amounts of land or (better yet) an archipelago map + Astronomy, that's a lot of religious expansion at once.

I've been thinking of doing a run with some religion up until Gutenberg Bible, then find a religion with only 1% spread. Convert, then see results of the Gutenberg Bible.

I haven't played a serious game in a while, but I usually wind up getting Hellenism by beelining Warfare while the AI is headed for Writing, and then getting to Christianity while the AI goes for Feudalism/Guilds. Once I've built the Parthenon, then I switch to Christianity to get King Richard's Crusade and start racking up Crusaders. I find Crusaders actually aren't offensive juggernauts because they don't start with any XP, but they are still really useful. Promoted Swordsmen are better city attackers. I have usually wound up getting Islam and that definitely tends to languish.

I don't want to lower the movement of any Missionary. I like all of them at move 2.

Making later religions better runs into the problem of Choose Religions. Any religion that's completely better than others will get taken immediately and it won't be a real choice.