City vicinity dependent wonders

45°38'N-13°47'E · May 11, 2015

aggri1 said:
Large, according to the Victory Conditions (F8) advisor's 'Settings' panel.

Which revision and mapscript are you using? Before Rev969 AI had problems expanding on some mapscript, especially when expanding on other islands or continents was needed. In every game I've tried with the last revision AI expands up to 15 cities on large maps, although there are civs with 7-8 cities

aggri1 · May 11, 2015

45°38'N-13°47'E;13815512 said:
Which revision and mapscript are you using?

I'm playing a Perfect Mongoose map with low sea level. There are huge areas of ice and tundra, it's not hospitable. But why should that have anything to do with anything? I contend that it's a problem that I can't build a range of very useful National Wonders because of arbitrary number-of-city limits. Talking about what's a reasonable number of cities to have is beside the point; the problem is the number-of-cities requirement itself.

Furthermore, you earlier suggested that we shouldn't have limits which discriminate against small Civilisations (requiring X Stonemasons, for example) - but that's just what these number-of-cities limits do.

Hehe, sorry, I just really dislike these entirely artificial, arbitrary limits.

Can we review these National Wonders like Vokarya did for the World Wonders? Remove number-of-city limits (mostly)?

Cheers, and thanks for your consideration.

A.

45°38'N-13°47'E · May 11, 2015

It matters because usually almost no civ has any problem with those limits on that mapsize. And anyway some limits are useful, for example the city limit for Warhead Factories prevents nuclear proliferation.

Rezca · May 11, 2015

Getting unsavory results from the mapscript RNG doesn't really have anything to do with the wonder limits themselves I think. On the other hand, playing on a Duel/Tiny map with just one other AI and not being able to build something because it's asking for 6 ~ 8 cities? That's another matter. On a Large map that just happened to produce mostly bad terrain because of the mapscript you're using? I think in that case you'd be better off playing a different script if it's hampering your building that much

aggri1 · May 11, 2015

45°38'N-13°47'E;13816313 said:
It matters because usually almost no civ has any problem with those limits on that mapsize.

So what's the point in having the limits on these buildings then?

45°38'N-13°47'E;13816313 said:
And anyway some limits are useful, for example the city limit for Warhead Factories prevents nuclear proliferation.

Yes this example makes sense, to some extent (I am sure it's still possible to proliferate WMD with restricted manufacturing facilities, just a it harder/slower).

Likewise with the Summer Palace, you could argue that you should have a certain size empire before it can be built. I would make a counter-argument that there are other ways to deter the building which are less arbitrary - e.g. some cost in either gold or hammers (or ...?) which makes the building only worthwhile when you've got a certain type of empire (e.g. one with more than seven cities).

But in any case, for the earlier National Wonders which require seven cities, do we really need that limit?

Cheers, A.

Rezca · May 11, 2015

aggri1 said:
So what's the point in having the limits on these buildings then?

Yes this example makes sense, to some extent (I am sure it's still possible to proliferate WMD with restricted manufacturing facilities, just a it harder/slower).

Likewise with the Summer Palace, you could argue that you should have a certain size empire before it can be built. I would make a counter-argument that there are other ways to deter the building which are less arbitrary - e.g. some cost in either gold or hammers (or ...?) which makes the building only worthwhile when you've got a certain type of empire (e.g. one with more than seven cities).

But in any case, for the earlier National Wonders which require seven cities, do we really need that limit?

Cheers, A.

Summer Palace reduces maintenance in nearby cities. Why would you need that if you only have three cities currently? :lol:

I figure it's just a way of measuring population / empire size. Sure, you could code in a way to check for your actual population, but imagine the wonder being canceled because one of your cities population levels dropped due to unhealthiness...

I honestly don't see the problem. Being unlocked early doesn't really mean you're expected to build it early too. Piracy promotion is unlocked very very early in the game, but I've yet to manage to obtain it before 1500AD. Or at least, getting it in one go. I need mroe than five Great Generals at once to come close, and need to have a Naval Academy on top of that before I can do anything with it. Navigation II and Coastal Assault is a pretty hefty requirement for something that's unlocked so early :lol:

Vokarya · May 12, 2015

I think the problem is that the number of buildings required for National Wonders hasn't changed, but the ability of players to expand (and thereby reach the requirement) is more difficult. The default number of players is higher on any map larger than Tiny, barbarian cities can turn into real civs, and cities can break away in revolts.

I don't want to remove the building requirements entirely; number of buildings has been a typical requirement for National Wonders in all versions of Civ that have the NW concept. I could understand lowering the prerequisite count by 1. I certainly don't want to go in the Civ5 direction where EVERY city has to have a building before you can build your NW.

I was willing to remove building requirements for World Wonders in order to increase the competition factor for Wonders. The more conditions you put on a Wonder, the more likely that fewer civilizations will meet the requirement, or even none will and the Wonder never gets built. National Wonders don't have that competition. Everybody should be able to get their own copy of each NW.

Those are my thoughts.

45°38'N-13°47'E · May 12, 2015

Vokarya said:
I think the problem is that the number of buildings required for National Wonders hasn't changed, but the ability of players to expand (and thereby reach the requirement) is more difficult. The default number of players is higher on any map larger than Tiny, barbarian cities can turn into real civs, and cities can break away in revolts.

I don't want to remove the building requirements entirely; number of buildings has been a typical requirement for National Wonders in all versions of Civ that have the NW concept. I could understand lowering the prerequisite count by 1. I certainly don't want to go in the Civ5 direction where EVERY city has to have a building before you can build your NW.

I was willing to remove building requirements for World Wonders in order to increase the competition factor for Wonders. The more conditions you put on a Wonder, the more likely that fewer civilizations will meet the requirement, or even none will and the Wonder never gets built. National Wonders don't have that competition. Everybody should be able to get their own copy of each NW.

Those are my thoughts.

If you want to lower city requirement by 1, that's OK with me.

aggri1 · May 12, 2015

Hmmm, if I've read correctly, the only reason anyone's given for there being number-of-city requirements on National Wonders is "it's always been like that in Civ" (Vokarya).

Reducing the number by one won't address the problem in general.

In the game I'm playing, most (approx' 80% of Civs) don't have more than six cities, let alone the seven or more required to build the National Wonders in question. So small Civs are disadvantaged, on top of their lower research and production abilities.

Everybody should be able to get their own copy of each NW.

I agree. But at the moment, only very few Civilizations can, because of the number-of-city requirements. "Tuning" the actual number is not going to help, there'll always be small Civs who would like to build e.g. Oxford, the mechanic itself is bad, and I've still not heard a good general justification.

Cheers, A.

:deadhorse:

??

45°38'N-13°47'E · May 12, 2015

aggri1 said:
Hmmm, if I've read correctly, the only reason anyone's given for there being number-of-city requirements on National Wonders is "it's always been like that in Civ" (Vokarya).

Reducing the number by one won't address the problem in general.

In the game I'm playing, most (approx' 80% of Civs) don't have more than six cities, let alone the seven or more required to build the National Wonders in question. So small Civs are disadvantaged, on top of their lower research and production abilities.

I agree. But at the moment, only very few Civilizations can, because of the number-of-city requirements. "Tuning" the actual number is not going to help, there'll always be small Civs who would like to build e.g. Oxford, the mechanic itself is bad, and I've still not heard a good general justification.

Cheers, A.

??

Over 70 NW and only 16 of them require x buildings (so removing that limit won't benefit AI very much, if at all), not even all of them require 7 on a large map, some require less. Most of them require Bank and are available late in the game when AI should definetely have more than 6 cities. Can you post your savegame? It's really strange that no civ has more than 6 cities, unless you started with 20 civs on a large map which is clearly out of intended parameters for the mod. Or you are playing with an outdated version where AI wasn't able to expand properly. In my current game with Revolutions and Barbarian Civs most civs have >8 cities and I have more than 20 civs in game.

platyping · May 12, 2015

Civ V has a new requirement style for NW though.
It simply requires building X in ALL cities, while cost of the NW increases with number of cities.
So whether you are playing OCC games or you have 20 cities, you still can build the same NW.
But if you expand too much, you will have trouble building NW since cost increases, but then you have more revenue to rush it.

aggri1 · May 12, 2015

45°38'N-13°47'E;13818053 said:
It's really strange that no civ has more than 6 cities, unless you started with 20 civs on a large map which is clearly out of intended parameters for the mod. Or you are playing with an outdated version where AI wasn't able to expand properly. In my current game with Revolutions and Barbarian Civs most civs have >8 cities and I have more than 20 civs in game.

The reason the AI Civs are all small is likely because most of them are ex-barbarians. I started with just 7 or 8 real Civs in the game. Now there are so many that the scoreboard can't fit them all. The majority are single-city city-states, plenty have two or three cities, but just a handful of Civs have more than five cities - the ladder leader has about 10 I think.

Not sure it's really worth posting a save game. It's not the kind of map most people probably like. I enjoy having wild hostile lands in the game, and not having the entire world densely settled by 1AD.

The AND revision is only one or two behind current. Perhaps once the AI learns how to siege properly there'll be some consolidation of all those city-states - I suspect that the inability of the AI to siege is prolonging the longevity of single-city Civilizations.

School of Law and Medicine and Oxford are the Nat' Wonders I would like to be able to build. I guess I'll just wait until I've expanded a bit more...

Cheers, A.

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