Ai using Citadel's - unfair

Hamsterdam · Nov 29, 2012

Playing a agme at the moment where I am trying everything to avoid mass expansion and wars, so I have a modestly sized civ with shared borders with the Dutch and Russians. The Dutch go and place a citadel on the edge of their border taking horses, iron and cattle and causing one of the few cities to go into starvation (the city is pretty much there to give a decent southern border defence as surrounded by deserts and mountains, so those tiles really mattered). Of course I can do nothing, no discuss topics to warn them not to do it again, I could only denounce them or DOW.

So I denounce them as it was a crucial blow to me and gave them nothing as the three tiles they stole where way outside the control of any of their cities. I then send my own GG over and place a citadel to take two of the tiles back. Straight away I'm warned that I'll regret it and they DOW me the next turn along with the rest of the civs in the game.

Why is it such simple fairness with the diplomacy cannot be done in this game. It was annoying enough I can't challenge armies on my border but this was criminal and has changed a nice strategic battle into my trying to survive 5 modern era civ's crushing me because I'm the bad guy apparently.

Socratatus · Nov 29, 2012

You`re going to have to play their game and be mean too. One thing i would advise is try to make as many friends as possible who are further away so your neighbour can`t do it against you. Get one defensive pact. That can put them off attacking.

And at the last, your only option might have to be war.

Tachii · Nov 29, 2012

Placing a citadel first often hurts them more than you if you go to war though. The citadel will be converted to yours if you place another GG within the area effectively making ... many tiles that would hurt the AI.

You not making any friends has nothing to do with "unfairness" though. Obviously civs that were friends with the Dutch would pick them over you and go to war together like buddies. I have done the same to AI before. Use a GG and takes 2 incense tiles. They get pissed, but either can't DOW on me because I have the superior army, or they think they can beat me, and my friends denounce them for their aggressive behaviour. I make sure I don't angry off a civ with a bunch of friends (until I can handle them).

TractorBoy · Nov 29, 2012

Hamsterdam said:
The Dutch go and place a citadel on the edge of their border taking horses, iron and cattle and causing one of the few cities to go into starvation (the city is pretty much there to give a decent southern border defence as surrounded by deserts and mountains, so those tiles really mattered).

I don't play G&K and I didn't know that GGs could build a Citadel and culture bomb at the same time, don't you guys find that a little OP?
On the vanilla version I sometimes use a GG and GA in conjunction with each other but it sure as hell isn't going to happen very often. These games must have Citadels all over the place!

legaceez · Nov 29, 2012

TractorBoy said:
I don't play G&K and I didn't know that GGs could build a Citadel and culture bomb at the same time, don't you guys find that a little OP?
On the vanilla version I sometimes use a GG and GA in conjunction with each other but it sure as hell isn't going to happen very often. These games must have Citadels all over the place!

you (and the OP) are actually overreacting a little. even on deity the AI rarely steals land with a citadel. yes in g&k the great general now culture bombs and builds a citadel and the GA can no longer culture bomb but only the GA can start a golden age now. it's also harder to generate great people now.

it's all fair game. you can do the same things. it just seems in this game the OP never took the time to build up some allies.

TractorBoy · Nov 29, 2012

legaceez said:
it's all fair game. you can do the same things. it just seems in this game the OP never took the time to build up some allies.

My implication is more of a reference to the fact that I would be the owner of most of the citadels and that in my hands they would be overpowering! I love to use them as much as possible but am restricted by having to produce GAs to go with them and that suits me fine.
In the vanilla version if you build a Citadel right next to a City which you can usually do by using two GAs if you are quick enough to build a city close to their borders, then the Citadel damages troops stationed in the city, I don't know if this is still the case in G&K?

Civking5 · Nov 29, 2012

U should come and see how effectively people are using citadels in multiplayer games. The horror, the horror...

Hamsterdam · Nov 29, 2012

My point was the unfairness that I cannot warn them against it and tell them off for doing it yet as soon as a build a citadel and steal back 66% of MY stolen land I am denounced and everyone DOW me. Until that time everyone had a friendly status with me, no one had been at war with me and there was lots of trade. Dirty Dutch steal my land and turn my peace loving society into the world's new battlefield.

I've done worse myself for sure, just never experienced this un level playing field in the diplomacy apart from where I can't tell them to get away from my borders

nokmirt · Nov 29, 2012

TractorBoy said:
I don't play G&K and I didn't know that GGs could build a Citadel and culture bomb at the same time, don't you guys find that a little OP?
On the vanilla version I sometimes use a GG and GA in conjunction with each other but it sure as hell isn't going to happen very often. These games must have Citadels all over the place!

If the AI does not use it then it is overpowered. Which it wasn't for the most part, only sometimes.

In any case, this is interesting, I am glad the AI has turned into a rat. Hats off to the devs the AI uses offensive citadels. :lol:

No offense to the OP, but the AI needed a boost in meanness.

Hamsterdam said:
My point was the unfairness that I cannot warn them against it and tell them off for doing it yet as soon as a build a citadel and steal back 66% of MY stolen land I am denounced and everyone DOW me. Until that time everyone had a friendly status with me, no one had been at war with me and there was lots of trade. Dirty Dutch steal my land and turn my peace loving society into the world's new battlefield.

I've done worse myself for sure, just never experienced this un level playing field in the diplomacy apart from where I can't tell them to get away from my borders

This is why I have said time and time and time again. Diplomacy needs to be expanded. Good luck in battle fight to the end.

Socratatus · Nov 29, 2012

I took a 12 level AI capital city a lot easier by placing two citadels joining up to it. Even when I ran out of enough men for a while I was able to keep hurting his defenders in the city until I could bring up reinforcements. AI never really knew how to deal with it. However, i do find citadels somewhat silly... how did I manage to build a fort right under an enemy city`s walls??

I agree that diplomacy needs much more expanding though, as some stuff simply don`t make sense in context or you can`t do what the AI can do, like warn them off.

Peng Qi · Nov 29, 2012

It sounds like you were diplomatically isolated and that the Dutch knew they could get away with it. And why would there be a "plz don't build citadel here again" option? If they're willing to do it once they're not going to care if you whine about it afterward.

Louis XXIV · Nov 29, 2012

They could have just declared war, but they decided to see if they could take the land without declaring war. Obviously it failed, so they declared war. I don't see that as unfair. They probably factored your likely unhappiness into the equation when they decided to do it in the first place.

mike1117112 · Nov 29, 2012

I was rolling over what was left of Mongolia, after he had conquered many CS's. He had put citadels everywhere. One CS, Sidon if I recall had a line of them marching up to the city. He had put one or two at several spots, and made it a bit tough for awhile, until I unlocked Arty, and was able to keep rolling. At King, the AI seems to be using citadels a bit more than before the patch, without a doubt. Maybe just the warrior civs, Mongolia, Attila, etc, but they are using them quite effectively the last two games I've played.

smallfish · Nov 30, 2012

This one happened really sudden - I was pushing my way towards Harar, even laid my own citadel on the sheep tile... and then the Ethiopians suddenly took back Dijon and reverted ALL the citadels that had been mine into theirs. Immediately I had to pillage that citadel I had just laid down...

Spoiler :

Plumfairy · Nov 30, 2012

Hamsterdam said:
My point was the unfairness that I cannot warn them against it and tell them off for doing it yet as soon as a build a citadel and steal back 66% of MY stolen land I am denounced and everyone DOW me. Until that time everyone had a friendly status with me, no one had been at war with me and there was lots of trade. Dirty Dutch steal my land and turn my peace loving society into the world's new battlefield.

What's unfair about it? He used a great general for exactly the purpose they're designed for. The fact that you got the short end of the stick means that the AI outplayed you. Nothing unfair about that... just play better next time. (And "playing better" might mean nothing more than accepting that it's time to go on the warpath.)

Peng Qi · Nov 30, 2012

Plumfairy said:
What's unfair about it? He used a great general for exactly the purpose they're designed for. The fact that you got the short end of the stick means that the AI outplayed you. Nothing unfair about that... just play better next time. (And "playing better" might mean nothing more than accepting that it's time to go on the warpath.)

Or playing the diplomacy game better. I mean, the fact that the Dutch could drag so many people into war with him says to me that he had really let himself become isolated and diplomatically weak. Usually when countries declare war on me in my games, they get denounced by a lot of people.

Sidor1982 · Nov 30, 2012

Peng Qi said:
Or playing the diplomacy game better. I mean, the fact that the Dutch could drag so many people into war with him says to me that he had really let himself become isolated and diplomatically weak. Usually when countries declare war on me in my games, they get denounced by a lot of people.

I have to agree with the OP on this one.

The game mechanics doesn't give human player many options, which the AI has. When the AI steals your land he is the bad guy, but you can't do anything about it other than DoW or denouce, which in the eyes of other AI's make you the bad guy. In the opposite situation - You steal the land - the AI has the option to show his anger without denoucing/DoW.

Such a situation occurs on many other ways - moving units near borders, settling near opponent, spreading religion, grabbing land, stealing CS etc. The human player cannot react the way the AI can, which makes the diplomacy broken and one-sided, which is in my opinion the biggest flaw of the game.

LegionSteve · Nov 30, 2012

I'm so glad I saw this thread yesterday! I've only had G&K since the recent steam sale and I had no idea citadels worked like that. It suddenly made sense why my current game has AI citadels everywhere, and some strange looking borders. Last night I used it myself to grab some aluminium, very handy

legaceez said:
even on deity the AI rarely steals land with a citadel

In my game they are spamming citadels EVERYWHERE. Mostly they are stealing resources from city states, and occassionally from each other. They haven't done it to me yet, since I started on an island. And since I expanded to the mainland all my neighbours have been friendly, or dead.

legaceez said:
and the GA can no longer culture bomb but only the GA can start a golden age now

I had no idea about that either :eek:

Thanks!

nokmirt said:
In any case, this is interesting, I am glad the AI has turned into a rat. Hats off to the devs the AI uses offensive citadels. No offense to the OP, but the AI needed a boost in meanness.

I agree with this :goodjob:

True_Candyman · Nov 30, 2012

Sidor1982 said:
I have to agree with the OP on this one.

The game mechanics doesn't give human player many options, which the AI has. When the AI steals your land he is the bad guy, but you can't do anything about it other than DoW or denouce, which in the eyes of other AI's make you the bad guy. In the opposite situation - You steal the land - the AI has the option to show his anger without denoucing/DoW.

Such a situation occurs on many other ways - moving units near borders, settling near opponent, spreading religion, grabbing land, stealing CS etc. The human player cannot react the way the AI can, which makes the diplomacy broken and one-sided, which is in my opinion the biggest flaw of the game.

The diplomacy options are only as limited as you make them. you can talk to other civs and try to get in friendly with them.

I had a game the other day in multiplayer which i thought was incredible. Me and my friend were Polynesia and Siam. Denmark and the Aztecs were on our continent too. Denmark hated me, and the Aztecs hated my friend, but i had a friendship pact with the Aztecs and he with the Danes. We had virtully reached the point of war when we decided to make a declaration of friendship between ourselves as a last hope. Suddenly, all aggression stopped. Denmark even turned friendly towards me and we all had a lovely time.

You don't need human players for such a scenario (but it sure can help). Equally there are a whole host of other things you can do to dissuade aggressive civs too. You've just gotta use your imagination.

But if there's one thing i can't stress enough that will help you avoid wars, it is to BUILD AN ARMY. Every time i've been attacked or i've seen someone attacked, particularly early on, is because they have fallen behind their neighbours in their military because they wanted to get ahead on science, wonders and economics. This is not a viable strategy and you are not balancing your empire. You are asking for it.

Sidor1982 · Nov 30, 2012

True_Candyman said:
The diplomacy options are only as limited as you make them. you can talk to other civs and try to get in friendly with them.

I had a game the other day in multiplayer which i thought was incredible. Me and my friend were Polynesia and Siam. Denmark and the Aztecs were on our continent too. Denmark hated me, and the Aztecs hated my friend, but i had a friendship pact with the Aztecs and he with the Danes. We had virtully reached the point of war when we decided to make a declaration of friendship between ourselves as a last hope. Suddenly, all aggression stopped. Denmark even turned friendly towards me and we all had a lovely time.

You don't need human players for such a scenario (but it sure can help). Equally there are a whole host of other things you can do to dissuade aggressive civs too. You've just gotta use your imagination.

But if there's one thing i can't stress enough that will help you avoid wars, it is to BUILD AN ARMY. Every time i've been attacked or i've seen someone attacked, particularly early on, is because they have fallen behind their neighbours in their military because they wanted to get ahead on science, wonders and economics. This is not a viable strategy and you are not balancing your empire. You are asking for it.

My post is about something else. Please take that into account before sending an answer completely off topic.

Ai using Citadel's - unfair

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