Our hopes for modability

MatteM

Prince
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Sep 7, 2015
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Well, from what I've read and seen, have to say I have mixed feelings. The cultural variety I really like, if they can pull it of without too speculative and silly results.
The cartoony feel of the graphics, well I'm not sure what justice the posted screenshots actually does. And modding the terrain graphics would most likely be an option.

The big thing for me has always been modding, the mayor reason I love the Civ-series of games. I am currently working on a large Civ4-mod, a game more than 10 years old but that I still play and love for all the created content available.

My biggest request and hope is for them to include some way to easily integrate for example unit graphics from Civ 4 and Civ 5 into the game. This should not be too difficult since all the three games use 3d-models. Civ3 uses storyboard-pictures so obviously that wouldn't work.

If creating graphical content for CivVI is not made easy for people that are not professionall 3d artists, then there probably will not be much of a modding community.

Also, XML is a very useful and easy way for modders today to mod the game, let's
keep that spirit. Civ5 makes it easy to combine mods also, and that is an idea worth keeping.

And finally a good map/scenario editor is a must!

My hopes for modability anyways, the interview with the developers didn't reveal much.

Any thoughts from modders?
 
I mostly only modded map scripts, I just hope they so it Civ-IV style rather than Civ-V (namely let some parameters be in xml files, don't hardcode city-states into the map, don't lead Sirian to write comments that look like apologies for bad design in the code).
 
Audio should be easily moddable. There should also be a possibility to set your own music not only for each civilization (culture), but also era (like in Civ4).
 
I mostly only modded map scripts, I just hope they so it Civ-IV style rather than Civ-V (namely let some parameters be in xml files, don't hardcode city-states into the map, don't lead Sirian to write comments that look like apologies for bad design in the code).

The City states was interesting idea, there is a need for some sort of minor civ-element, for use as pawns in Great Power diplomacy. However, the Civ-diplomacy engine is not really suitable for all types of diplomacy. It is inherently difficult to make a diplomacy model that fits all eras in human history, therefore making it open enough to mod would be a big plus!
 
Audio should be easily moddable. There should also be a possibility to set your own music not only for each civilization (culture), but also era (like in Civ4).

Good point, it is not difficult ta make a playlist of course, but we would like to change music depending on era, also a possibilty to change music when you are at war or you have entered a golden age (or whatever corresponding feature in civ6) would be nice.
 
Not a modder myself, but I *really* hope MP games will allow playing with modded games. I can think of reasons why this might not happen, but hey, let me dream.
 
Modder here, this excerpt as well as personal assurances from the team has me assured that we're in good hands:

“We’re going to talk about this in depth later, but what we have done is added a whole bunch of flexibility in terms of how game rules are built, and created, and linked to the different subsystems in our game. And that sort of fresh approach to things is going to make the modders be able to go nuts right out of the gate in terms of adding things.”
 
Modder here, this excerpt as well as personal assurances from the team has me assured that we're in good hands:

Another modder and software engineer here, that can mean anything. ;) I would love to see a Civ 4 level of moddability, even though I doubt that will happen in 2016. You could literally change the core of the game to replace the pathfinder and add multiple maps to play on in the Civ 4 engine. What I suspect this quote means is that they have set up the lua/whatever scripting language they chose this time around to be more generic (so you aren't for instance limited to whatever CvLuaBuildings exposes like we were in Civ 5 until the DLL source was released). But truly getting moddability like we had in previous games would require the gameplay C++ source.
 
No doubt they'll do stuff like simplifying game rules with XML and lua so that you don't have prepackaged components like "CanMoveOverMountainsAfterGeneral" and instead have broken down components so you can recreate something like the aforementioned from the ground up. What they do beyond something like that is what I'm really looking forward to more information on.
 
If the terrain graphics are easily moddable then I expect that there will be some great mods for Civ VI. It would be cool to see player created wonders on the map. I'm thinking of a system similar to Sim City.
 
Workshop is a great starting place.

As a casual user of mods here are my requirements
- find a mod in an easily searchable database (check)
- have a way to keep track of all my downloaded mod (check)
- complete mod management in-game in terms of dedicing which one I want to be turned on for which save file (tbd)

I'm not interested in uzipping files, moving files in and out of windows directories and keeping track of all that :p

As an even more casual modder (I loved the mod tools in Civ3 which gave us an easy to use editor of almost every fascet of the game in a windows environment) I want something like what we had in Civ3.

If someone has the ability to go to blender or 3dmax to make new units/buildings, awesome! But I want to be able to edit pre-existing models or download modded models and edit their stats, in the same place I can edit government/tech effects, edit the map, place starting locations and most importantly run debug games where I can watch the AI play itself.

Wishlist item - love to be able to do minor cosmetic changes of existing models/buildings, like swapping color palettes, changing the weapons and props around, etc (if the previews are to be believed, the units will be highly detailed and culture specific while retaining their core 'unit' aesthetic, which to me implies a lot of props like helmets, spearpoints and gear add-ons will be layered ontop of a unit to make that happen)

Is that too much to ask? :)
 
Yeah, things sound pretty exciting for modding.

Hopefully, this includes less hard values for things (that's always so annoying!) and also more flexibility in the way bonuses/abilities are structured, so they can be easily applied to multiple things. In Beyond Earth, it was nice how they handled perks; I hope Civ6 takes it further.
 
No doubt they'll do stuff like simplifying game rules with XML and lua so that you don't have prepackaged components like "CanMoveOverMountainsAfterGeneral" and instead have broken down components so you can recreate something like the aforementioned from the ground up. What they do beyond something like that is what I'm really looking forward to more information on.

We did something like this in C2C called the Expression system. It allowed for arbitrary size and complexity boolean and integer expressions involving buildings, terrain, units, yields, features, improvements, etc. These expressions could then be substituted for integer or boolean values in the XML and would be interpreted at runtime by the DLL. It was quite powerful but a pain to code so it didn't get used too often.
 
So long as we're able to add more civs in an original and creative manner, that's all I think I'm interested in. Everything beyond that is gravy.
 
I hope there is an in-game map editor. The separatemap editor mode in Civ V was a big disappointment.
 
What I want (need?) for my mods, is reasonable in-game 3D graphic representation of each item I custom design! This could easily be done by providing a very generic graphical representation of every item displayed in the game.

The most unpleasant aspect of modding in Civ 5, for me personally, is the lack of reasonable ability to mod in-game graphics. I can create great mods which "do" exactly what I want. However, they look pathetic and "feel" pathetic because all my mods are not appropriately represented graphically in-game.

In Civ 5, I have only two options.
i) "Borrow" an existing graphical representation for ambiguous re-purposing.
ii) Design my own graphical item.

Neither of these options is very helpful or practical for me (and most other modders).

i) Using a graphical representation from a different item leads to in-game ambiguity (2 different items with identical graphical representation). It also obscures and hides the aspects of my newly created and designed mod item, while inappropriately visually indicating the aspects of the original unit "borrowed" from.

ii) It would take me a long time to learn animated 3D graphical design (in general, as well as the specific tools used for Civ 6). Then it would take a long time to gain experience in successfully designing graphics for practical applications. I would constantly find myself watching a swordsman fall down, turn into a red cube, simply disappear, or worse yet, crash the game, just before battle, because I wasn't aware of some higher level aspect of animated graphic design.

Please provide non-animated, extremely generic, graphical representations of each item type for in-game use by mods!

These would be professionally designed, non-distinct, graphical representations of items which I could select to use for my mods.

When I say "non-animated", what I really mean is graphical representations, whose animated activity is to only stay constantly stable and motionless. Like pieces on a chess board in a world of active critters.

I, like most modders, have reasonable abilities in creating 2D items, such as icons. But 3D graphics is a completely different world. And animated graphics make customization even less attainable.

We have wonderful tremendous capability in modding almost all other aspects of game play.

Even if sometimes, dreaded Lua coding might be involved, which always creates the undesirable possibility of causing game instability due to lack of understanding the entire system. We do have the capability to do a whole lot with very simplistic changes to the Lua code.

The modding community has been provided the tremendous opportunity and ability to invent, design, and create a radically distinct unique complex modification of the base vanilla game. Moddability is one of the largest aspects of the Civilization series, which keeps it as one of my favorite game series.

Most of us modders are completely helpless regarding modifying animated graphics. Yet graphics are a very important aspect of games, evidenced through the redesign for Civilization 6 graphics. And graphics are critical in creating the "look and feel" our modification efforts deserve.

The state of technology necessitates and demands experienced understanding and capabilities for even minor changes to graphics. If the developers were to try and make 3D animated graphic modifications more accessible and available to casual inexperienced modders, the game engine and development process would necessarily suffer in some very concrete ways. That would not seem to be the best approach. Nor a reasonable solution.

I believe a very practical compromise is possible with only a relatively small effort by game developers.

The solution, which seems potentially helpful, would be along the following lines:

Game developers could provide very generic professional quality animated (but not actually moving) graphical representations, for every item displayed in game. Modders could simply select those generic graphical representations for any newly designed or modified item.

For example, if I modify a melee unit, I could simply change the XML from "<graphical_representation>UNIT_GRAPHICS_IMMORTAL<graphical_representation>" to "<graphical_representation>UNIT_GRAPHICS_GENERIC_MELEE<graphical_representation>".

This is by no means, a perfect solution. The ultimate solution would be for every modder to have the abilities of the professional graphic development team, and use that ability in creating their mods. That would most likely never come to be. However, I would greatly prefer this "compromise" solution regarding in-game graphics over what has been provided in Civilization 5.

If the developers could provide very generic, aesthetically appealing, professional quality graphical representation of every displayed game item, I could create a much more palatable mod. The modders could always select very generic graphical representations for any newly created item in the game. It would definitely be second best, and a compromise. Yet would be profoundly more aesthetically and functionally appealing than what was available to us in Civilization 5.

Unit: A very generic graphical representation fitting all units (perhaps just a single unarmed human). A very generic graphical representation of each unit type would be even more helpful (mounted, ranged, melee, air, naval, civilian, great person). The in-game graphical representations of a generic unit would be most helpful if they did not move. Rather, simply a unit standing still. Because movement is indicative of specific actions or capabilities. Movement is also much more difficult to causally mod in a successful way.

Building: A very generic graphical representation fitting all buildings. Perhaps simply a square cinder block building. Over-simplified customization, such as color changes, or size of the cube, or a symbol or letter appearing on the building might be reasonably available for modders wishing to take the plunge in learning to "dabble" with 3D graphics.

Terrain: A very generic graphical representation fitting all terrain types. Perhaps a flat neutral colored tile. Maybe graphically representing a "real life" slate gray colored concrete floor.

Resource: A very generic graphical representation fitting of all resources. For example, a simple gray colored sphere which would graphically appear on tiles containing a resource. Other possibilities could include a three dimensional statue of a gold coin, production hammer, smiley face, dove, or generic statue representing culture. It would also be nice to have a physical foundation under such three dimensional mini-statues, which the statue rests upon, to indicate the type of resource. A square foundation could represent bonus resources, a round foundation for strategic resources, and a fancier foundation for a luxury resource.

Leader: Very generic graphical representations of a leader. Perhaps a human not portraying a particular race in very non-distinctive gray colored clothing in an abstract gray background containing no particular specific items. One female and one male would be nice. We would need the animated interface screen (appearing when we discuss trade and diplomatic options), and the other movie (I think there are 2 videos for each leader), the portrait backdrop painting appearing in the Civilopedia, and all the rest of the complete leader graphics set, including all associated icons and other imagery for my generic leader.

Technology: All graphical components representative of a technology. Perhaps a simple gray background with text defined in an XML file for display on the graphic. If that would be too difficult, simply a set of maybe ten gray base graphics, each displaying a unique number or symbol. Such as "Technology 1", "Technology 2",... Technology is not really represented graphically in-game in main map mode. I am aware of difficulties or limitations in having the Technology tree adequately or perfectly reflecting mods visually.

Tile Improvement: Perhaps just a statue of a "plus" sign to indicate that a tile has been improved in a very generic manner.

This notion may seem silly to some, but a very reasonable compromise to me. I would much rather play the game with a gray non-distinct (chess piece statue) human as my special melee unit. Instead of using an "African Elephant" to graphically represent my fire breathing dragon.

I would much rather have a concrete floor represent my new "rain forest" terrain than choose between jungle or forest representations, which would be visually identical to legitimate jungle and forest tiles.

If such extremely generic graphics are provided to the community with game release, modders could use them "as is". Modders would also have a much greater opportunity to slightly modify the generic graphics by simply "dabbling" in the graphic design tools. Working with over-simplified, "gray" colored", non-moving graphical representations would be a much more feasible starting place, than highly detailed representations intentionally designed to exaggerate highly specialized or special aspects and attributes.

It is much easier to add graphical features to a bland non-distinct starting representation than to remove very specific features already designed into a highly specialized representation, in order to later reach a "base" starting generic unit.

For example, my very non-distinct graphical representations could probably easily be color coded with only a very simplistic inexperienced use of the graphics tools. I could create 20 items which are identical in graphical representation except for only color differences. This is something I might be able to quickly learn how to do with the 3D graphics tools. Or perhaps, I could create 30 units, identical, except for an overly exaggerated defining helmet or headgear. Or perhaps, I could put a very distinctive weapon (which I graphically design) into the hand of the generic unit which simply stands as still as a statue in-game.

Even more helpful, would be an ability to choose 2D icons as the 3D representation of items. For example, I might prefer that my newly designed and created unit be graphically represented, in-game, by a "coin" which displays the 2D icon graphics on both faces of the coin. Buildings could be 3D cubes with the 2D circle icon visible on all visible faces of the cube. Terrain could be a flat gray "floor" with the 2D circle icon displayed upon the floor.

If this could be pulled off, most modders could obtain a very reasonable and feasible "look and feel" for their mods. The major aspects of their invented items would successfully be displayed appropriately through 3D representations of the 2D icons. Even they might appear a bit quirky or weird in a gray, black-box, overall generic appearance. At least the item would successfully represent a distinctly unique, new and different item created by the modder.

This is a much more appealing solution to me than only the ability to choose preexisting graphical representations which have distinctive distinguishing features having nothing to do with my newly designed item.

If I could simply place a text or number on very generic "gray" representations, it would much better help me "feel" like my items are reasonably represented in game. And at least the appearance of such items would seem reasonably appropriate, instead of unreasonably representing a completely different "original" item in a very "wrong" way.

Game developers are creating dozens of animated graphical representations of every in-game item for display. It would not seem to entail a whole lot of extra trouble, to also create an extremely generic and bland 3D graphical representation of each item.

Please seriously consider this suggestion. I believe it would go a long way with both modders and mod users.

I guess the second best possibility regarding my suggestion, would be for a modder proficient in 3D animated graphics to create this set of items for the community. I wouldn't dare ask, hope, or expect a game player, or fellow modder would accommodate me by granting such a favor.
 
No doubt they'll do stuff like simplifying game rules with XML and lua so that you don't have prepackaged components like "CanMoveOverMountainsAfterGeneral" and instead have broken down components so you can recreate something like the aforementioned from the ground up. What they do beyond something like that is what I'm really looking forward to more information on.

Do we know they're sticking with Lua? At least then I wouldn't need to learn a new language - on the other hand, it'd be very cool to need to do so.

So long as we're able to add more civs in an original and creative manner, that's all I think I'm interested in. Everything beyond that is gravy.

Dummy buildings and policies were the lifeblood of non-DLL based modding. Be merciful, God Head Sid Meier.
 
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