'empty' isolated continent start

I'm new & just starting the higher levels, but i got this standard continent start game shared with one city-state, surrounded by ocean. by the time discovered this dilemma & was able to cross the ocean to explore & trade, the other civs were well ahead, tech, points, all city-states well allied and so forth.

the initial start was in the continent interior. my next settlement was to max luxes & work a wonder. I didnt build an ocean front until my 3rd settlement. barbarians were really being pests, so i didnt realize i was completely isolated until the scouting ships had run their course.

I couldnt do much of anything without astronomy, also happiness mgmt was a chore because there werent any trade options.

what is the right move in this scenario? i want to max science, stay happy & keep the barbarians at bay. Dont need to be worried about early civ warfare.

I never bother playing those maps. They are basically errors in the script, AFAIC.

Without the ability to trade, reduce beaker cost, CS ally, etc, then the difficulty level pretty much doubles.

If someone disagrees, take this map and make a Deity challenge out of it, and see how many people can win with it.

These maps are fantastic and I hope they make to DC series. These are great because they force you to play without huge early game bug/exploits like stealing 5 workers.

Like I said, if you can post a VidLP of a non-SV Deity win without using any 'exploits', starting on an isolated continent, I will be impressed. In fact, if you do, I will let you choose a map for the DCL. Calling contact with other civilisations an exploit is too much for me.

When Oda DoWs you T30 with a huge army is he exploiting you? So why is it an exploit if you T9 send a brave scout to offer one of his workers a new job?

consentient said:

When Oda DoWs you T30 with a huge army is he exploiting you? So why is it an exploit if you T9 send a brave scout to offer one of his workers a new job?

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Because he forgets about it. If he would only accept peace for like 200 gold or something then it wouldn't be so exploitative. Or, alternatively, make it a permanent negative diplomatic modifier like spying on them.

But 10 turns later he'll literally just not care 99% of the time. And he should still care.

consentient said:

Like I said, if you can post a VidLP of a non-SV Deity win without using any 'exploits', starting on an isolated continent, I will be impressed. In fact, if you do, I will let you choose a map for the DCL. Calling contact with other civilisations an exploit is too much for me.

When Oda DoWs you T30 with a huge army is he exploiting you? So why is it an exploit if you T9 send a brave scout to offer one of his workers a new job?

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Because it's bug or extremely idiotic programming that AI doesnt protect it's workers. They have plenty of extra units(on deity) doing pointless circles around cities.

Edit: It's extremely rare(or time confusing) to find map where you start on isolated continent. I didnt speak anything about victory conditions. Of course culture is next to impossible on isolated start. Domination is possible but slower.

Edit2: Sadly Oda or anyone else hasnt dowed me that early in ages

It's not like worker-stealing doesn't require a modicum of care. You must seize a good opportunity.

They do try to protect them some of the time. But yes the pointless circles is stupid, I grant you that. I just don't think it's an exploit. They get free ones and I don't. So, as a warmonger, I take them.

But anyway, I don't want to derail this thread.

Isolated continent starts suck, they are at best really slow, and on higher difficulty levels, there is almost no point playing them.

consentient said:

Isolated continent starts suck, they are at best really slow, and on higher difficulty levels, there is almost no point playing them.

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Sure, the point is to play only great starts.

It would be really funny if AI can reroll map, so you roll great start and AI decides - it's too easy and move you back to main menu

I had a game like this once but it was on Immortal and I was Korea, there were 2 city-states with me while being ocean blocked. Not sure how big your ocean was but mine had 2 locations where I could see a single coastal tile across the ocean so I planted both my triremes there and hoped that an AI would send a unit in that tile eventually.

IronfighterXXX said:

Sure, the point is to play only great starts.

It would be really funny if AI can reroll map, so you roll great start and AI decides - it's too easy and move you back to main menu

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That would erase half the DCL maps tbqh and it would also mean I'd have 0 DCL wins

on topic, it's good, but it's also bad. No early wars means you don't have to worry about an army, but no trades means you'll hit the happiness limit very soon forcing you to stop growing and also, no trade routes for more gold. Which is kind of alright if you plan on growing as much as you can before Universities but still, happiness

I don't feel motivated to defend the DCL against the charge of being 'too easy', because I don't believe that it is, overall. Sure, some maps are much easier than average, but some are harder than average, too.

It's not just that starting on an isolated continent is harder, but also that it's extremely boring, and extremely pointless, given that we're supposed to be simulating civilisations, and in history, civilisations have always interacted with other civilisations. In real life, the people that had no interaction with others for thousands of years were NOT civilised, and they stayed technologically thousands of years behind the civilizations.

I think that IronfighterXXX is just trolling again, frankly.

Moderator Action: Accusing another user of trolling is trolling. Please do not do this again.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

IronfighterXXX said:

Sure, the point is to play only great starts.

It would be really funny if AI can reroll map, so you roll great start and AI decides - it's too easy and move you back to main menu

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I have never downloaded a MOD but if someone made this MOD I think I might actually implement it into my game! It wouldn't have to be the AI per say but a program that could analyze a map and give you ones with the lowest percentage of win rate because of the players land vs the AIs land and what AIs are in the game. This is because I do not mind losing I actually enjoy it and when I do it will make me learn from my mistakes.

I think it was Grendeldef who said the first 8 DCLs were 8 easy lay ups since some players were complaining over the 9/10 DCLs and that was his reply .... lol you have had 8 easy lay ups and now you have a slower start so 20% - 80% isn't a bad ratio. I am not sure if it is the easier starts that has made Gren not play recently or just a matter of time. It most likely is a lack of interest since I remember reading a post by him saying that the game itself wasn't very interesting but comparing games was the interesting aspect of the DCL. Actually I griped the whole game of the DCL 10 but I think I showed that when you Warmonger and start to take over the map you can really push the game into late turn times since I think my finish Dom time was turn 397. However, that map wasn't so hard since all the AIs were in a cluster and as other stronger players pointed out that it would keep the AI tech rate very low making for an easier game in reality.

Obviously it is not always a matter of level for players because I haven't seen Glory_7 play any recent DCLs but I did see him show up for a recent GOTM that I started to play but got bored with because I think it was Emp or Prince and I just have a hard time keeping interested. I really like his building roads everywhere strategy but when I try it I get tired of having to build and delete roads. Heck I hate telling workers to do anything in the game and that is why you see me with very few and my hexes unimproved a lot of games. Also since I usually do not grow very tall and I work all specialists I do not need to improve a lot of hexes since my citizens will only be working so many of them.

We should have a game where you can't improve any hexes except for resources but I am sure most players would get bored with that type of game since the AI would be more competitive.

On a side note...

I have been testing games with kb27787s style and I am really hating the no bribe button. I keep reaching for the bribe button and have to slap my hand away! It does make the game harder but I think it makes it lose some of its dimension. I guess sort of like playing without improving your hexes would make the game less dimensional as well. I remember Gren playing with all kind of rules like no spying for techs, no roads, no trade... etc. Yes it will make it harder and more fair but for me it changes the game and somehow makes it very dull for me. I almost am at the point of giving up on trying to play a kb27787 style of game and just apologize for the challenge of him going DOM and me going CV since I am so bored with the style. I am sure he is just as bored killing unit after unit and being the worlds enemy. However, since I seen him post up that in 30% of the games he plays he does have to use bribes and used one early in the Poland Map I think I realize the special rules only apply until it is mandatory to break them so that gives me some new hope since I should be able to bribe if I feel the game is in Jeopardy? Actually I went back to the Poland map and replayed it 4-5 times with the intent on winning a Peaceful CV since he had to go SV on that one but that map is very tough for a no bribe type of CV lol! I have been working on going Warmonger and making Alex DOW me and perhaps upset the world by wiping him out and denouncing everyone putting me at total war. Next I would clear the map down to nothing in late turns and win the CV that way but it might not be possible for me and it might take a week or so to actually complete.

extollo, welcome to civfanatics!

Can you post the map so we can have a try?

The isolated map is valid and fairly common if you roll lots of Continents maps. But we dont play those b/c Frigates are OP.

The challenge of isolation is not falling too far behind on tech. I like them for builder games.

consentient said:

I don't feel motivated to defend the DCL against the charge of being 'too easy', because I don't believe that it is, overall. Sure, some maps are much easier than average, but some are harder than average, too.

It's not just that starting on an isolated continent is harder, but also that it's extremely boring, and extremely pointless, given that we're supposed to be simulating civilisations, and in history, civilisations have always interacted with other civilisations. In real life, the people that had no interaction with others for thousands of years were NOT civilised, and they stayed technologically thousands of years behind the civilizations.

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Sounds like Japan. Weren't they isolated from most of the world until the late 1800s and very far behind the rest of the world? Pretty amazing because they exploded and became a very strong nation and almost took over the world with the Axis. It was a good thing they got the USA into the war though. The funny thing is USA was like what 19th in the world and basically just getting out of a depression but because of all the secret trade deals with Europe we ended up being #1 in the World for some time.

EDIT: Almost the same (sorta) with the Barbarians who later became Germany. Ancient Rome had a tough time with these uncivilized brutes!!

Yes, F.A., well that shows the effect which that Slavery dynamic you mentioned from Civ 4, can work in real life.

Korea modernised faster than anybody and entire cities were built practically overnight. But they didn't build themselves. And now you have a distressed society where there is an epidemic of people deliberately maiming themselves to give the proceeds of health insurance claims to loan sharks.

Anyway, I'm digressing again...

Fluphen Azine said:

I have been testing games with kb27787s style and I am really hating the no bribe button. I keep reaching for the bribe button and have to slap my hand away! It does make the game harder but I think it makes it lose some of its dimension. I guess sort of like playing without improving your hexes would make the game less dimensional as well. I remember Gren playing with all kind of rules like no spying for techs, no roads, no trade... etc. Yes it will make it harder and more fair but for me it changes the game and somehow makes it very dull for me. I almost am at the point of giving up on trying to play a kb27787 style of game and just apologize for the challenge of him going DOM and me going CV since I am so bored with the style. I am sure he is just as bored killing unit after unit and being the worlds enemy. However, since I seen him post up that in 30% of the games he plays he does have to use bribes and used one early in the Poland Map I think I realize the special rules only apply until it is mandatory to break them so that gives me some new hope since I should be able to bribe if I feel the game is in Jeopardy? Actually I went back to the Poland map and replayed it 4-5 times with the intent on winning a Peaceful CV since he had to go SV on that one but that map is very tough for a no bribe type of CV lol! I have been working on going Warmonger and making Alex DOW me and perhaps upset the world by wiping him out and denouncing everyone putting me at total war. Next I would clear the map down to nothing in late turns and win the CV that way but it might not be possible for me and it might take a week or so to actually complete.

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Well the "no bribe" rules I invented originally just meant you have to compete with the runaway fair and square (or you have to fight them fair and square if you want to invade someone) and meant for immortal; I know some deity starts you have to throw in an early bribe or fall too far behind for CV.

The Poland map by far is not a map you want to go peaceful CV on (unless Korea decides he doesn't want the wonders!); for a peaceful CV, I would recommend the Inca, Byzantium, or China DCs are probably the easiest. Basically you are looking for good terrain for a capitol and hopefully squeeze in two more cities. Thse DCs allow you to do that with ease because of defensive terrain and not so horrible dirt.

For DomV I'm thinking about if I should play the Mongolian one (last time I won an immortal DomV I had to abuse camel archers... I'm sure the Keshiks are the same thing)

kb27787 said:

For DomV I'm thinking about if I should play the Mongolian one (last time I won an immortal DomV I had to abuse camel archers... I'm sure the Keshiks are the same thing)

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The Keshik has less attack power than the CA. Beware.

KB I challenge you to do your DomV on the Celts map, which will follow your Brazil one. Mongolia is too OP. Celts should be fun

yeah the Mongolia map was obviously so easy, even I could pull off a DomV