Question about Research Agreements

@_alphaBeta_, thanks for the catch; edited my post above to fix that.

@Player1_Fanatic, yes. Among the many other implications:

If the RA covers a period where the weaker partner's beaker production has grown quickly (e.g., during the RA, the weaker partner builds/buys universities, staffs the specialist slots and takes the Rationalism opener), then 5 turns worth of the 30-turn bpt average will be much less than 5 turns of the weaker partner's bpt run-rate at the end of the RA. And for the stronger RA partner the base RA pay-off may only be a turn or two of beakers at his own bpt run-rate.

In addition to making sure you pick the right RA partner, this makes Scientific Revolution (and PT) all the more important if you are going with an RA strategy. Unfortunately, the reorganization of Rationalism in BNW means it takes longer to get there (last policy, unless you stay on the left side and delay getting Humanism and Free Thought) than in G&K (4th policy, if you marched down the left side, which everyone did).

Also, on the "turning gold into beakers" point, before this change, it often made sense to fund both sides of an RA, even with a weaker partner, to get the benefits of your own beaker production in the average. Now, not so much.

Browd said:

And for the stronger RA partner the base RA pay-off may only be a turn or two of beakers at his own bpt run-rate.

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After my post, I ran the same math with the 3000 vs. 9000 example, and indeed the stronger 9000 beaker partner pays the gold for a research agreement and then waits 30 turns to get a little over a turn and a half worth of research. Not so great. Of course this example is probably a bit extreme, but I guess anything's possible and you could have one civ making triple the beakers as the other in a typical game.

Browd said:

Also, on the "turning gold into beakers" point, before this change, it often made sense to fund both sides of an RA, even with a weaker partner, to get the benefits of your own beaker production in the average. Now, not so much.

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Fund both sides? As in gift the necessary funds to the potential partner, and then offer the agreement same turn? I never thought to try that.

So did we establish that any beaker acquisition counts toward the total over the research agreement?

Well you can gift the required gold, and get the "we've traded recently" positive diplo modifier, but If the Ai has enough GPT, just offer the required gold in return for strategic resources, open borders, and/or as much gpt as the AI is prepared to pay. Or bribe your RA partner to DOW someone you hate, and then have him use your bribe money to pay his half of the RA cost. However, you do it, you want to get some "value" from the gold you give the AI.

The only beakers that count in the RA totals are "regular" beaker production (including beakers from allied CSs with Scholasticism). Excluded from the computation are beakers from other RAs, beakers from GS bulbs, and beakers attributable to techs you get "for free" (e.g., techs stolen by spies, free tech from the Rationalism finisher).

1. No, since you do not benefit from their RA beakers. if their other RA yields, say, 1000 beakers when it resolves, those 1000 beakers are ignored in determining your RA pay-off. If their other RA ends early enough to allow the AI to leap into higher levels of beaker production by building or buying a new science building or taking a key Rationalism policy, then you will benefit, but that is purely coincidental. Same applies to tech stealing -- if the Ai can steal Education from another civ, and rush-buy universities, you benefit from the additional university beakers, but you don't directly benefit from the tech steal.

2. The era-differential payments are still in the game post-patch, and the cost is still 100 gold per era differential (if you are in Industrial and your RA partner is still in Medieval, the 2 era differential costs you 200 gold equivalent, which can be paid with any combination of luxury and strategic resources, open borders, gpt and/or gold).

Sorry for slightly necroing this thread, but I tough there was the most appropriate place to ask this question:

Is there anyway to see an AIs science rate short of guestimating based on population and other factors?

clinton said:

Sorry for slightly necroing this thread, but I tough there was the most appropriate place to ask this question:

Is there anyway to see an AIs science rate short of guestimating based on population and other factors?

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Trade routes. If you're getting a science bonus from them (and you're not culturally dominant in any way), they have a tech you don't have yet. If that bonus remains constant or gets bigger over a period of time, that means their science is equal or better than yours. Other than that, it's really just guessing.