Build Monument or wait for Legalism when going Tradition?

Gurra09

Gurra09

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Almost every time I start a new game I'm torn whether I should build a monument in my capital right away to get that extra culture fast and grab policies early or build something else early on like a second warrior or scout, and wait longer for policies but then have a free monument at Legalism after opening Tradition.

Is the production used on other things from waiting for the free monument worth the culture loss or is it better to build it and get an amphitheatre from Legalism? How do you usually go about when going for Tradition?
 
Unless I have a start with no production, I usually build the monument, because otherwise I tend to find that I need to build the amphitheatre at a point where I really need the production for other things...
 
Maybe I'm weird, but regardless of whether I open tradition or liberty I prefer to build a scout first, while the free warrior scouts terrain. Waiting 5-10 ticks to build the monument doesn't offset the rest of the liberty tree that much, including the free settler. Ideally I would hope a culture ruin and pick up liberty opener or republic that way.
If I go tradition I would either build another scout or hard-build a worker

The only case I would go monument first is if I open with Piety. With honor opener I would want to have a few units killing barbs before worrying about monuments... I'd get the useful policies from honor when I need them and have units to use military caste.

I've learned that it is a really bad idea to open Tradition and divert from finishing the tree. If you built a monument before reaching legalism, it might be worth it to take the policy to get to the really good part of the Tradition tree, rather than take oligarchy or aristo which might be dead policies for a lot longer.
 
nimling said:
Maybe I'm weird, but regardless of whether I open tradition or liberty I prefer to build a scout first, while the free warrior scouts terrain.
Click to expand...
That's not weird, that what most people do. ^^

One of the advantages of going for Tradition is the fact that you can generally skip the monument. Scout -> Start Worker -> Shrine or Granary -> Finish Worker -> X (Probably a settler) is an example of a BO that's okay for pretty much any starting location and gets your empire up and runnig quite fast. Policies will come in time, even if you're not lucky and don't get a culture ruin before turn 25.

You could start with Scout -> Monument as an alternative if you want to guarantee that your culture grows as fast as possible, but whatever you do, get a scout first - bonuses from ruins, finding city states (first), finding trading partners, scouting the area and reducing tech-cost are just way stronger than the 20-30 culture you miss.
 
SammyKhalifa said:
scout, scout, shrine
Click to expand...

This is my usual order as well. If going tradition, I'll usually wait on the free monument. If I can happen upon a culture ruin it's not a long wait and usually sooner than the monument would come up in my BO. IMHO early production priority is just as important or more so as a few turns saved on early policy.
 
Scout scout. Then at this point I've had 2 units out scouring the terrain for awhile now. If I have found a culture ruin and have the first policy, I skip the monument. Else I'll knock it out quick, then go back to my build order.
 
scout, scout, shrine but it depends on the civ, map and level of play.

If I'm Ethiopia it's scout, stele, scout. You want +2 faith rolling from stele but still need that one scout out there first. When Legalism comes be sure to sell your monument first to qualify for a free one in your cap.

If Poland and using tommynt's strategy(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378) then scout, scout, shrine, monument. If you can time Legalism just right after Drama you'll get a free amphi but not always easy to do so sell monument if you can't but keep if you can.

For deity religion can be difficult to get especially if the other civs are celts, ethiopia and maya. So I'll only build a shrine early in that case if I got a good desert start, near a wonder or anything that will allow me to boost my faith by +2-4 through a pantheon. Otherwise if you are rolling +1 faith against civs like that you'll never get a religion unless extremely lucky and sometimes you won't even get a pantheon.
 
I build two scouts almost always. Shrine as soon as it's available. Monument right after. I only skip the monument if I find an early culture ruin.
 
ravenmagus said:
I build two scouts almost always. Shrine as soon as it's available. Monument right after. I only skip the monument if I find an early culture ruin.
Click to expand...

I could understand building monument instead of the shrine or before the 2nd scout, but if you go scout/scout/shrine (thats what I do 99% of the games) and then monument, you will finish the monument at the same time you open Tradition, and at that time you basicly do not need it anymore ...

There are way better things to build instead, like a worker or granary for example ...
 
I could understand building monument instead of the shrine or before the 2nd scout, but if you go scout/scout/shrine (thats what I do 99% of the games) and then monument, you will finish the monument at the same time you open Tradition, and at that time you basicly do not need it anymore ...
Click to expand...

That build is for a Trad/Lib hybrid. You take the tradition opener, and then go into liberty, you save legalism until you can use it for free amphitheatres.
 
Gurra09 said:
Is the production used on other things from waiting for the free monument worth the culture loss or is it better to build it and get an amphitheatre from Legalism? How do you usually go about when going for Tradition?
Click to expand...

I like to have a free amphi. But on Pangea/continents room good spots for satellites cities are tight. AI even on King is going to settle a city on a good spot. So, if I want a peaceful game or don't want manage a early war (build archers, manage happiness, diplo penalty so less early cash) my build order is also scout-scout-shrine.
It's also units for stealing workers from AIand CS. An amphi is cheaper than a worker.

An archipelago/tiny islands/ small continents, it's different. Ruins are rarer. So it's monument-scout-shrine. I need to expand my border faster so opening tradition as fast as possible. If my warriors show me I don't need a scout, I skip it for a worker.
 
teqofc said:
scout, scout, shrine but it depends on the civ, map and level of play.

If I'm Ethiopia it's scout, stele, scout. You want +2 faith rolling from stele but still need that one scout out there first. When Legalism comes be sure to sell your monument first to qualify for a free one in your cap.

If Poland and using tommynt's strategy(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378) then scout, scout, shrine, monument. If you can time Legalism just right after Drama you'll get a free amphi but not always easy to do so sell monument if you can't but keep if you can.

For deity religion can be difficult to get especially if the other civs are celts, ethiopia and maya. So I'll only build a shrine early in that case if I got a good desert start, near a wonder or anything that will allow me to boost my faith by +2-4 through a pantheon. Otherwise if you are rolling +1 faith against civs like that you'll never get a religion unless extremely lucky and sometimes you won't even get a pantheon.
Click to expand...

Why sell the monument? Don't you still get the amphi once you have the necessary tech?
 
UTBear said:
Why sell the monument? Don't you still get the amphi once you have the necessary tech?
Click to expand...

Sounds like he thinks you have to have the appropriate tech to before taking the policy, which is - if I'm not totally mistaken here - wrong, because while you don't immediately get any building if you don't have a culture building available, you still get the Amphitheater as soon as you research the tech.
 
Ryika said:
Sounds like he thinks you have to have the appropriate tech to before taking the policy, which is - if I'm not totally mistaken here - wrong, because while you don't immediately get any building if you don't have a culture building available, you still get the Amphitheater as soon as you research the tech.
Click to expand...

Nah, this came up a couple months ago too, and the basic point is that it saves you the maintenance cost on the monument between the point where you open legalism and have access to amphitheaters.

I'm still not sure it's efficient to do it that way, but I get the point. You're saving money when money matters.
 
Ryika said:
Sounds like he thinks you have to have the appropriate tech to before taking the policy, which is - if I'm not totally mistaken here - wrong, because while you don't immediately get any building if you don't have a culture building available, you still get the Amphitheater as soon as you research the tech.
Click to expand...

You are correct, my bad. I used to think that selling the monument for the +1 main cost was worth it but now that I think about it that means you miss the free amphi when you eventually discover drama.

So just disregard my bad advice about selling the monuments :)
 
Tradition start:
scout monument worker(production focus) - high hammer
monument scout worker(production focus) - low hammer
granary before worker if there are 3 or more granary tiles in range
shrine second (production focus) if I really want/need a pantheon asap

I almost never settle in place. I almost always settle on turn 1.
 
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