Beyond the Monument Episode 20 - Entering the Brave New World! (discussion thread)

I liked nearly everything about the videos but at the same time they reinforced my worries about the AI, especially the combat AI.

AI navies still look hopeless. On Deity, the player is at war with both the Danes and the Celts, and they achieve nothing in the turns we saw. AI units are being slaughtered and they still can't build any decent naval invasion or even a limited threat. And that's even without the player really defending the cities.

Looks like standard maps or even pangea will be the way to go for a challenge, but even then I doubt combat AI has been improved that much. Firaxis should understand a single player game is only as good as its AI, it's a major point in the game. You can have the best features in the world, they're useless if your opponent isn't challenging...

Civ 4 stack fights weren't perfect, but at least in Civ 4 the opponents knew how to make a decent city attack and a decent naval invasion (especially with BetterAI mod). I know it's a lot harder now without stacks, but it's essential for the game to be enjoyable.
Yeah, I've got similar impression. Seems like infinite happiness and tile based gold removal hurt the AI to the point it's even less competitive than before. I'd be very glad to be proven wrong, though.

Any changes to ranged vs. melee balance?
 
so influential status with a civ is kind of like a space ship part (or coming in first /second in a World Leader election)... you have achieved something, and it can't be taken away.

Can you get influential status on someone who previously achieved influential status on you?

pretty much yes. Yes, you can get to influential status with someone who is already influencing you. This can easily happen if there's a few civs aiming for Culture VC.
 
This is getting out of hand. How can I understand and master all this? I have a job. And kids.

kids: summer camp
job: multiplayer with the boss? . . or remember when games used to have a panic button that brought up a fake spreadsheet?
 
@Madjinn

when you picked up the ancient ruins in the Shoshone game, the text said, that the population will add to ONE of your cities. Did they actually fix this? Because in G&K the population would add to ALL of your cities, which was a fantastic bonus. So what happens if you find an ancient ruin on turn 50 and you select the population point?
 
Hey MadDjinn, is it now possible to win a culture victory with a wide empire, or at least more than four cities? You had six or seven cities with Portugal and it looked like you still might have been able to win culturally, if you were not focusing on a diplo win.
 
Thanks for all the answers, MD :)

Edit:
Adding to the question above me:
Are tall empires still viable for a (culture) win? As their strong point (lower SP costs) aren't that important anymore, but for a culture victory it's sheer brute culture/tourism force, more cities now seem better for a culture victory?
 
None of the guys on chat asked what the Chateaux did at the end? Or will this be revealed with a France with a Chateaux on Scramble for Africa?
Many Thanks for the video MD, BNW looks cool! I'm usually not one for the scenarios, so if your next vid can sell me on that then it'll be pretty much perfect!
 
None of the guys on chat asked what the Chateaux did at the end? Or will this be revealed with a France with a Chateaux on Scramble for Africa?
Many Thanks for the video MD, BNW looks cool! I'm usually not one for the scenarios, so if your next vid can sell me on that then it'll be pretty much perfect!

It is known

must be built adjacent to a luxury resource tile
must NOT be adjacent to another Chateau

+2 gold +2 with Flight
+2 culture +1 with Flight
+50% defense

[not known is what tech it takes to build it]
 
realistically 3 types of culture now:

1) SPs.
- Free SPs gain you nothing except more SPs. This also goes for policies/wonders that reduce the cost of SPs.

2) building based culture, Great work Culture, and culture from SPs/religion that just go into the culture pot.
- This form of culture builds up your culture defense, but it can never be converted to tourism, which you need to ensure you're pressuring others at the same rate that they are pressuring you (or more).

3) Tile based culture and wonder based culture.
- This is the best form of culture. It adds to your culture defense AND, with the Hotel/Airport/National Visitor Center, also adds into your tourism. You need tourism to pressure others and hit the various levels (exotic/familiar/popular/influenced/dominant) to ensure that other civs aren't out pressuring you. If you're going for a culture win, this is what you want.

Good to know that.

What about the culture output by working on AMW specialists (i assume they produce culture)? since either building and wonder has slots for these specialists, which type of culture are they producing?
 
It is known

must be built adjacent to a luxury resource tile
must NOT be adjacent to another Chateau

+2 gold +2 with Flight
+2 culture +1 with Flight
+50% defense

[not known is what tech it takes to build it]

Thanks, I'd missed that one.

Oh yeah, on the vid: Iron at bronze working, and cheaper ironworking. Would that be the cause of the natural Rome buff then? :)
 
Thanks, I'd missed that one.

Oh yeah, on the vid: Iron at bronze working, and cheaper ironworking. Would that be the cause of the natural Rome buff then? :)

no the rome buff is the domestic trade route feeding rome for the 25% hammer bonus
 
@Madjinn

when you picked up the ancient ruins in the Shoshone game, the text said, that the population will add to ONE of your cities. Did they actually fix this? Because in G&K the population would add to ALL of your cities, which was a fantastic bonus. So what happens if you find an ancient ruin on turn 50 and you select the population point?

Sorry, this is not how it works in G&K. The free pop from a ruin is just 1 pop point and settles in a random city, if you have more than one city (appears usually to be the closest city to the ruin). You do not get 1 pop in each city.
 
no the rome buff is the domestic trade route feeding rome for the 25% hammer bonus

Ya but wasn't that just CFC speculation? Unless testers said it, I'm willing to hold out on the possibility it's more the iron thing till I play it. After all, how many different speculations have been made about Polynesia?
 
At first I thought it was the dTR thing for Rome, but now I think it's the iron too.
 
It's both. They never stated what the bonuses are, and in a way BOTH of these thing are indirect buffs.

Rome can now built Legions earlier, as well as the fact they can provide additional bonus to buildings via the dTR.
 
@Madjinn

when you picked up the ancient ruins in the Shoshone game, the text said, that the population will add to ONE of your cities. Did they actually fix this? Because in G&K the population would add to ALL of your cities, which was a fantastic bonus. So what happens if you find an ancient ruin on turn 50 and you select the population point?

Browd has the correct answer:

Sorry, this is not how it works in G&K. The free pop from a ruin is just 1 pop point and settles in a random city, if you have more than one city (appears usually to be the closest city to the ruin). You do not get 1 pop in each city.



Hey MadDjinn, is it now possible to win a culture victory with a wide empire, or at least more than four cities? You had six or seven cities with Portugal and it looked like you still might have been able to win culturally, if you were not focusing on a diplo win.

Adding to the question above me:
Are tall empires still viable for a (culture) win? As their strong point (lower SP costs) aren't that important anymore, but for a culture victory it's sheer brute culture/tourism force, more cities now seem better for a culture victory?


Both wide and tall civs are completely viable for Culture VC in any of the 3 ideologies. Tall cities mean that you can stack more in them (and likely to have the national wonders all stacked there as well). Tall civs are still more likely to get to ideology tenets/more SPs sooner than wide civs. Whereas wide civs are more likely to have their great works/national wonders/etc spread out, but have a higher chance to get landmarks around more cities.

Good to know that.

What about the culture output by working on AMW specialists (i assume they produce culture)? since either building and wonder has slots for these specialists, which type of culture are they producing?

specialists are purely in the 2nd category. They don't get boosted by the hotels/etc, so can't be converted to tourism.
 
I wonder if tourism will really be an improvement on the old culture system. I fear its just something new to "grind" and not fun.
 
Well this stream confirmed the AI has no idea what a submarine is or how to use it. I don't think Denmark's subs fired a single shot. He walked up to 3 enemy subs with one nuclear and didn't even suffer a scratch. The only thing doing any damage was the Danish air force. The Celts couldn't even scratch a city that had no initial defensive units. Since it looks like they didn't bother to fix lancers or naval combat, or reduce the power of ranged units, war in BNW is looking the same. Hopefully the changes to swords make them at least serviceable. Though they still aren't as good as ranged units at anything other than being meatshields. Well unless they get rid of 1upt in Civ 6 war will remain hilarious. It does amuse me that Buccanner, who is willing to sacrifice everything else in the name of Ai strength defends this hilariously broken combat system.

Overall it looks like BNW adds more stuff to do and decisions, but keeps CiV at about the same level. For those worried about Ai aggressiveness, remember he was on a water map. Water maps cripple the AI's aggressiveness and ability to declare war.
 
Follow up question if you have the time; What civ, and SP tree, to choose if you want to be as immune to Tourism as possible? :)
... or any other short guidelines to follow if you want to feel secure from Tourism Pressure...?

Preventing Tourism pressure is as simple as ensuring that your cpt is higher than everyone else's tourism output (easy to check) as well as keeping decent tourism yourself. 'immune' will never exist, else that breaks the whole system. There is that one wonder though... :mischief:

Would that one Wonder be the Great Firewall?

I wonder if tourism will really be an improvement on the old culture system. I fear its just something new to "grind" and not fun.

The old culture system was overly insular and deadeningly rote. For me it was even less fun than the DV, which at least had the excitement of a vote. The new culture system seems to be the most complex of the VC (with a DV coming in second).

Well unless they get rid of 1upt in Civ 6 war will remain hilarious. It does amuse me that Buccanner, who is willing to sacrifice everything else in the name of Ai strength defends this hilariously broken combat system.

Overall it looks like BNW adds more stuff to do and decisions, but keeps CiV at about the same level.

With the near-total remaining of culture and diplomacy, I think BNW verges on being "Civ 6," primarily because the game seems to have achieved an unprecedented level of flexibility and balance in terms of VC. (That it also added a bunch of new stuff and decisions is icing on the cake.)

I really doubt there will be a return of Civ 4-style unlimited stacks in Civ 6. My most radical guess? Limited stacks, with a tactical screen where stacks are unpacked to 1upt, and battles are fought.
 
Did anyone watching the stream pick up on how significant Portugal's UA was in adding extra gold? I saw the trading window open up, but I didn't see how much of the gold was attributable to the UA.
 
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