Ideologies are good for 3/4 Victory Types

okay so the possible combinations are:

1. Domination, Diplomatic, Culture
2. Diplomatic, Culture, Science
3. Culture, Science, Domination
4. Science, Domination, Diplomatic

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new achievements point to these combinations:
Autocracy: Domination, Diplomatic, Culture
Freedom: Diplomatic, Culture, Science
Order: Culture, Science, Domination

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One Small Step - Win a Space Victory using the Freedom Ideology.
Yuri-ka! - Win a Space Victory using the Order Ideology.
Rocking in the Free World - Win a Cultural Victory using the Freedom Ideology.
Workers of the World - Unite! - Win a Cultural Victory using the Order Ideology.
Strength Through Joy - Win a Cultural Victory using the Autocracy Ideology.
Games Without Frontiers - Win a Diplomatic Victory using the Freedom Ideology.
Axis Powered - Win a Diplomatic Victory using the Autocracy Ideology.
Better Red Than Dead - Win a Conquest Victory using the Order Ideology.
Everybody Wants to Rule the World - Win a Conquest Victory using the Autocracy Ideology.

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It seems like the balance of win conditions for 3 late game ideologies are: 3 ways for Culture, 2 Domination, 2 Diplomatic, 2 Science

Glassmage said:

okay so the possible combinations are:

1. Domination, Diplomatic, Culture
2. Diplomatic, Culture, Science
3. Culture, Science, Domination
4. Science, Domination, Diplomatic

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new achievements point to these combinations:
Autocracy: Domination, Diplomatic, Culture
Freedom: Diplomatic, Culture, Science
Order: Culture, Science, Domination

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One Small Step - Win a Space Victory using the Freedom Ideology.
Yuri-ka! - Win a Space Victory using the Order Ideology.
Rocking in the Free World - Win a Cultural Victory using the Freedom Ideology.
Workers of the World - Unite! - Win a Cultural Victory using the Order Ideology.
Strength Through Joy - Win a Cultural Victory using the Autocracy Ideology.
Games Without Frontiers - Win a Diplomatic Victory using the Freedom Ideology.
Axis Powered - Win a Diplomatic Victory using the Autocracy Ideology.
Better Red Than Dead - Win a Conquest Victory using the Order Ideology.
Everybody Wants to Rule the World - Win a Conquest Victory using the Autocracy Ideology.

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It seems like the balance of win conditions for 3 late game ideologies are: 3 ways for Culture, 2 Domination, 2 Diplomatic, 2 Science

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Yes it appears that the new achievements have settled this debate.

The Order and Autocracy combos seem backwards. Nazi Germany had gangbuster science but wasn't known for its diplomacy. Soviet Russia, space race notwithstanding (which was their Germans vs. our Germans) was technologically quite backward, but was all about playing diplomatic games in the international community.

AriochIV said:

The Order and Autocracy combos seem backwards. Nazi Germany had gangbuster science but wasn't known for its diplomacy. Soviet Russia, space race notwithstanding (which was their Germans vs. our Germans) was technologically quite backward, but was all about playing diplomatic games in the international community.

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You are right, however Hitler did manage to rally a few European countries into his bloc and orchestrated the Axis, not to mention his diplomatic victory over Chamberlain. I also think those victory condition limitations should be exchanged, but since Autocracy already has this Gunboat Diplomacy tenet...

Soviet technology was never actually as bad as it's been made out to be, to be fair to the Russians. Mostly they just couldn't find good ways to actually produce the stuff they came up with on a large scale with a largely uneducated workforce, so they focused on reliable, simple designs. That's why you've got things like the AK and the T-34 that have lasted for far longer than technologically superior weapon systems.

There's a good argument for all three to be good at all four in different ways, in the end they just have to pick one that they're not as good in. It might be worthwhile noting that it would appear that just because the ideologies are geared towards specific victory conditions, you're not without boosts in the area left out; the tenet giving free troops for Freedom, for instance, is worthwhile bearing in mind. If Order had a few bonuses diplomacy wise like fermenting discontent/rebellion/stirring up workers revolutions etc and Autocracy had a few bonuses in science, then that might smooth over the oddities enough without detracting from the 'good at 3 out of the 4' concept.

The Soviets were known worldwide for their hard sciences. They managed to dramatically increase Russia's literacy rate.

It should've been obvious that each ideology would need to be good at Culture. An Ideology that couldn't generate as much tourism/culture would be at a severe disadvantage seeing as that's how they spread

AriochIV said:

The Order and Autocracy combos seem backwards. Nazi Germany had gangbuster science but wasn't known for its diplomacy. Soviet Russia, space race notwithstanding (which was their Germans vs. our Germans) was technologically quite backward, but was all about playing diplomatic games in the international community.

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Agreed, although, to play devil's advocate, I'd note that while Civ is definitely capitalizing on our collective fetishes for 20th century history, I think their goal isn't to strictly conflate Autocracy with Nazi Germany, Order with Soviet Russia, and Freedom with American America. Rather, they'd like the ideologies to represent an idealized and generalized version of these, well, ideologies. Basically, your empire in the game performs the way a real-life government's propaganda says it performs.
In that light, an idealized "Order" empire should be a competitor for a science victory, since it will have an efficient and well-organized population of highly educated scientists, supported by a well-organized population of highly skilled workers, all devoted to the state's directives. But they might not do so well diplomatically because they won't abide ideological compromise with the decadent capitalist pigs, and won't stoop to playing the same kind of corrupt politics that the bourgeois robber barons play.
So basically, the Soviets aren't a model for the kind of idealized "Order" empire you have in Civ V, because their system's failures were due to, in short, the lack of progressive inertia inherent in inheriting teeming masses of poverty-stricken illiterate proles, and hypocritical corruption in implementing a system that only works on paper if you kind of squint and cock your head. Really, it's absolutely astounding what they accomplished given all this.

As far as why a hypothetical "Autocracy" empire can't win a science victory but can win a culture victory, I've got nothing, except that the culture VC is the most changed of the two changed VCs, so Firaxis had an incentive to give it to everybody so players could try it out more.

AriochIV said:

The Order and Autocracy combos seem backwards. Nazi Germany had gangbuster science but wasn't known for its diplomacy. Soviet Russia, space race notwithstanding (which was their Germans vs. our Germans) was technologically quite backward, but was all about playing diplomatic games in the international community.

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Well, Germany was already a scientific powerhouse before those guys took over, The Nazis were very much into technology, but ther ideology wasn't really conducive to science. What was left of the Germany scientific community after Jews were no longer part of it busied itself with futile attempts to turn back the clock on physics.

can i nominate Yuri-ka as the best new achievement name?

AriochIV said:

The Order and Autocracy combos seem backwards. Nazi Germany had gangbuster science but wasn't known for its diplomacy. Soviet Russia, space race notwithstanding (which was their Germans vs. our Germans) was technologically quite backward, but was all about playing diplomatic games in the international community.

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That is absolute nonsense. In 1917, Russia was a feudal backwater stuck in the 17th century in Western European terms (as in not just pre-industrial but pre-Enlightenment); thirty years later they had nuclear weapons and ten years after that, they put the first artificial satellite and then the first man in space. There has never, in human history, been a technological leap forward even remotely comparable. You also grossly overstate the importance of captured German scientists, nearly all of whom went to the United States, to the Soviet space program.

The widespread misconception that the USSR only had advanced weapons technology and fell behind in other fields is mostly bogus too. They never got the hang of miniaturization or computer science, which, back then, actually was a military technology, and that's one of the big reasons they couldn't keep up in the arms race. On the other hand, their chemists, physicists, mathematicians, and medical doctors were just about the best in the world.

More importantly, since we're talking about ideology, the USSR was an avowedly progressive state that at least nominally valued science (although politics and repression definitely tripped them up) and placed scientific advancement—for the sake of knowledge—high among its goals. The Nazi regime was reactionary and hostile to progressive ideas; they actually managed to run German science (which had been, bar none, the best in the world) into the ground in many ways, not least among them by engaging in insane pseudoscience and by murdering Jewish scientists or forcing them into exile. Between 1905 and 1936, fourteen Nobel Prizes in Chemistry, Medicine, and Physics went to German or Austrian Jews. Which means that German Jews—less than 0.04% of the world's population—made up about 15% of all the scientific Nobel laureates in the entire world. Germany had gangbuster science. Nazi Germany did not.

"Autocracy," or fascism, or Nazism, is a reactionary, backward-thinking, myth-obsessed, thoroughly anti-scientific ideology. This is one thing Firaxis definitely got right.

wigwam said:

"Autocracy," or fascism, or Nazism, is a reactionary, backward-thinking, myth-obsessed, thoroughly anti-scientific ideology. This is one thing Firaxis definitely got right.

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In so much as it is being applied to represent militarism, at least.

They really should have added an Achievements for winning the game with the Victory Condition your ideology isn't good at. I'm assuming those victory conditions aren't completely blocked off for you once you pick an ideology, and winning that way despite the handicap is worth an achievement.

AriochIV said:

The Order and Autocracy combos seem backwards. Nazi Germany had gangbuster science but wasn't known for its diplomacy. Soviet Russia, space race notwithstanding (which was their Germans vs. our Germans) was technologically quite backward, but was all about playing diplomatic games in the international community.

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That's why it is called "space victory" not science victory. The real world's atomic era had plenty of Autocratic regimes (e.g. Chile, Frankist Spain, Portugal) but none of them was even remotely interested in the space race - it has been the almost signature goal of freedom vs order).

Reedstilt said:

They really should have added an Achievements for winning the game with the Victory Condition your ideology isn't good at. I'm assuming those victory conditions aren't completely blocked off for you once you pick an ideology, and winning that way despite the handicap is worth an achievement.

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I think it's been stated that it is literally blocked off. I don't like the principle of it, but I do think this is a good way of stressing the importance of the ideology that you choose ingame.

JFD said:

I think it's been stated that it is literally blocked off. I don't like the principle of it, but I do think this is a good way of stressing the importance of the ideology that you choose ingame.

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That's disappointing to hear. Not sure how that'd be implemented anyhow. Blocking Autocracy off from building space ship parts is easy enough (even if makes the ghost of Werner Von Braun cry). If I chose Freedom, what's stopping me from taking everyone's capitals? Do I just not win once I've done so?If I chose Order, can no one vote for me in a Diplomatic victory?

JFD said:

I think it's been stated that it is literally blocked off. I don't like the principle of it, but I do think this is a good way of stressing the importance of the ideology that you choose ingame.

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As has been stated on almost every page in this thread, the rumor that certain VCs are blocked off is not true.

Seek said:

As has been stated on almost every page in this thread, the rumor that certain VCs are blocked off is not true.

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Ah good. I'll have to set a personal challenge for myself then. Autocracy Space Victory. Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?

Seek said:

As has been stated on almost every page in this thread, the rumor that certain VCs are blocked off is not true.

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I haven't been following this thread, so I wasn't aware, but supporting evidence would have been more helpful I think.

JFD said:

I haven't been following this thread, so I wasn't aware, but supporting evidence would have been more helpful I think.

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http://issuu.com/gamerzines/docs/firstlook_4/33