To denounce or straight DOW a friend?

I'm currently playing an Epic-Speed immortal game where I am doing quite well. But I have a quandary. I have a current friend (Venice) and he is weak. I want to invade him and know I can easily wipe him out no problem as I have a tech advantage on siege and melee. I wanted to take him out eventually but he was a good trading partner in the meantime with lots of lump-gold and few military resources and eager to buy everything from me. So I complied. I thought friendships were a 30-turn affair (45 on epic) otherwise I'd never have made this mistake, but it has now been past 50 turns of friendship and the darn thing won't expire! It is currently at -6 and counting down. After a perusal of other threads I've found this is because I'm playing epic speed and the counter thinks in standard. So I've effectively been friends for 56 turns so far and counting, no signs of expiration. I have not found anywhere how long friendships last on epic, but someone guessed around 75 turns, which to me seems excessive and ridiculous. I'd thought they were 30 on standard and 45 on epic like everything else but apparently, I was seeing AI renew, which I have learned they can do before the friendship actually expires and it is a longer deal.

Regardless, I want to DOW him quick while I have this advantage. There were only 3 CS's on the continent. Venice, being Venice, took out the closest. I've since noticed another merchant hanging around for a few turns and Venice just got Astronomy and his merchant is getting ready to take off across the seas, beelining a very valuable CS that I don't want dead. His military is one of the weakest in the world and I have longswordsmen, trebuchets, and an adequate army on his front doorstep, ready to destroy this merchant and his 2 nice cities (I have been planning to take him out at some time soon), and denying open borders to stall his MoV and missonaries (he's also a competing religion).

The problem? The friendship...it has lasted already 10 turns longer then I ever dreamed they would and no signs of ceasing. If it truly lasts 75 turns on epic I say this is ridiculous. But I know for a fact if I wait that long Venice will take that other CS and get a huge boost to his military in the meantime (this CS has a massive, modern military as well and already burned one of Indonesia's cities in a war with alexander as ally). I want his annoyance gone before he destroys more CS and I don't want him to get this particular CS or its military which will essentially triple his strength.

So what to do? I can backstab him or denounce a friend and cancel the friendship that way. Which is better? I know: 5 AI out of the 9 possible. This would be ideal before I meet the other 4 soon as world congress will soon be founded. However, enraging 5/9 of the world's AI is not good either and they will grow further mad if I take 2 cities and wipe out venice completely. I could not care...but this isn't a warmonger game. I'm not planning on conquering the world and want a few friends. I thought about sending other civs to war with Venice, but unfortunately he is well-liked as well as he hasn't started converting everyone else's CS allies yet. The AI are to dumb to know what is to come.

Neither

They will find out, it's like gossip

You stab Enrico your diplomatic game ends.

You HAVE to wait it out. ESPECIALLY IF HE HAS OTHER FRIENDS

TheKingOfBigOz said:

Neither

They will find out, it's like gossip

You stab Enrico your diplomatic game ends.

You HAVE to wait it out. ESPECIALLY IF HE HAS OTHER FRIENDS

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People keep saying that, but when I backstabbed Korea because they wouldn't stop pushing their terrible religion on my powerhouse fishing boat cities, no one really cared. I had the modifier, but everyone was neutral, and traded fair with me.

Shaka? When the hell have you cared about others in diplomacy? You backstabbing lump of ----

Chum said:

People keep saying that, but when I did backstabbed Korea because they wouldn't stop pushing their terrible religion on my powerhouse fishing boat cities, no one really cared. I had the modifier, but everyone was neutral, and traded fair with me.

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I guess you can backstab unpopular people. But that's just my experience

Chum said:

People keep saying that, but when I backstabbed Korea because they wouldn't stop pushing their terrible religion on my powerhouse fishing boat cities, no one really cared. I had the modifier, but everyone was neutral, and traded fair with me.

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I was prolly down to they liked you more than they liked Korea. The pit-fall is when the back stabbed civ denounces you and their friends(or those who like them more than you) denounce you. You can even be back stabbed yourself. When this happens diplomacy is usually wrecked forever, especially if you denounce back.

To answer to OP there are 2 modifiers when you back-stab and these are the one from denouncing and the one from DOWing. I don't know if either is worse or not but I would denounce first and see what happens, you may have potential allies. Of course you should wait it out so there is no negative diplo modifier from backstabbing which every civ will have even ones you haven't met yet.

Both cause a diplomatic hit, war should be a worse hit but never really tested it. If you can take the hit or don't care if everyone dislikes you, do whichever you want. But in general it is better to let the DoF run out first.

You could also do both.. If your friend isn't doing the job then why not denounce and then a few turns later you make a DOW.

I've backstabbed and DOW'd a friend because they really ticked me off. For example, I make a DOF with Arabia. Two turns later they start bullying my CS allies. Then a few turns after that invade my CS allies. All the while they keep stealing my techs; and start sending missionaries and great prophets into my lands and my CS allies.

I should not be forced to sit idly while they invade my CS allies because I'm afraid of the negative repercussions for backstabbing them. I figure they backstabbed me due to their actions.

I hardly ever make DOFs anymore. If anything, the AI (to me at least) uses it to their advantage to do things like I mentioned. It's like giving them a free pass to do whatever they want.