AI declares on my Defensive Pact partner and I get all the blame...

Rant time!

I'm on an island, alone, having taken out my two rivals, and the world is pretty much a love-in. Bismarck is the superpower with 3 vassals; Van Orange agrees a Defensive Pact with him, and I (Louis) also agree a Defensive Pact with Van Orange, because they're both much stronger than me militarily.

So I'm minding my own business, sending out a few colonists to the New World and thinking about a Cultural victory, when out of the blue Bismarck DOWs on Van Orange and me (possibly triggered by Van Orange's conversion to Free Religion, not sure). I'm not too worried because I expect Bismarck and his cronies will be busy taking Van Orange to pieces rather than putting together intercontinental invasion fleets. Sure enough, a few turns later he agrees peace with me in exchange for a technology.

But... now my diplomacy with Bismarck and all his vassals is ruined! He's -3 for ME having declared war on HIM, and another -2 for having declared on his friends, in addition to losing the "Years of peace" and "Open borders" bonuses. I can't trade with any of them, and gone are all my lovely trade routes, except with Van Orange (and his days are numbered).

Bismarck knew that Van Orange and I had a pact when he declared, so by declaring on Van Orange effectively he's also declared on me. But no, apparently I'm the bad guy who everyone hates as a result. (And if he'd declared on me rather than Van Orange, there wouldn't be a diplo penalty, so that seems asymmetric.)

I guess what I am saying is that you shouldn't get a diplo penalty for going to war when you do so automatically as a member of a defensive pact. You're just defending your buddies and it shouldn't be seen as aggressive. Anyone agree?

No, that's the risk you take when you sign a defensive pact.

Isn't the risk having to go to war, rather than getting a huge diplo penalty? You don't get the diplo penalty if an AI declares on you directly.

It's the rules of the game, but I think you're right--you shouldn't get the diplo penalty for abiding by a defensive pact. (Or at least you should get the option of declaring or not--with huge penalty for not living up to treaty obligations.)

Well, actually it sounds logical IF you sign Defensive Pact (basic idea of it is to protect each other.. isn't?)... You have Def pact with William... Germany attacks him... So you attack Germany to punish for this action.. Problem here is just that "destroy" diplo situation after war but... don't like to get diplo penalties, don't sign Def pacts with potential target civs....
P.S. Still I'm happy that this don't work in real life and USA, UK etc. has Def Pact with Latvia (target civ from Big Bear side) where I live or Russia already would be here.... I just hope that NATO will fullfill protection agreement if "X day" ever happen)

rbj2001 said:

Bismarck knew that Van Orange and I had a pact when he declared....

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//edit: nevermind, i stand corrected//

On the gameplay note: making a DP with a Civ that is going to be disliked by another faction for any reason whatsoever is just asking to be dragged into their petty nonsense. Especially unwise is to make a DP with a Civ that is weak militarily.

Thanks, I never knew if that was a consideration for the AI for a DOW.
Now I know it's not.

One of Civ's great mysteries is how the AI can botch city placement and can't deal with basic attack maneuvers like forks, or naval attacks... but can infallibly fornicate the human player with defensive pacts.

I never sign a defensive pact unless I feel okay with the idea of fighting my pact-mate and their worst enemy. Because sure as eggs is eggs, that worst enemy will declare on my pact-mate, and the pact-mate will make peace 10 turns later and join in the war against me shortly after that.

ThorHammerz said:

No he doesn't .

The AI just checks for its target's power, and a portion of the vassal's power (forgot how much... iirc, half?). The AI only looks at defensive pacts when it makes them, not who has it with who - do not ever think of them as a "deterrent" against the AI, just think of them as a rope you can drag other Civs into your wars without having to bribe them.

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Sure? According to this DP partners strength do count.

Even when you sign a DP at the right moment it still can give an unwanted result. sigh.

Did someone declare on your DP partner first, using your DP, then you got DoW'd without a DP anymore? That is really stupid game design, but I guess based on whatI understand that's exactly how it would work. Crappy.

No. Cyrus dowed Wang Kon after some preparation time.
I had simply bad luck with Cyrus taking its turn before Alexander.
I should have paid more attention who of the AI goes first IBT.

I distinctly remember that in World War One the war started between Serbia and Austria but Germany was treated like they started it

Windsor said:

Sure? According to this DP partners strength do count.

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I stand corrected, I overlooked that.

Although to the OP: it would seem you crossed a diplomatic threshold, and the power of your DP partner combined with your own was not enough to deter Bismarck from DoW (did not exceed the power threshold) - Bismarck had vassals, so his own "perceived" power was also inflated.

DPs are broken and the diplo hit for fulfilling the pact is one of the broken things.
It should be treated as if the attacker declared war on the 2 together.
Sign DPs with caution, I only do if the deterrent power is worth something.

And this is why I don't usually sign DPs with AIs, especially when I'm more powerful.