City State Elimination question

Here's a quick one that I couldn't find an answer to. Let's say I have totally blocked off some land from the rest of the AI. This is early game, mind you. Inside that blocked off land there is a city state that is annoyingly in the middle of my blocked off land. No one has met this city state yet except me. If I DoW on that city state and eliminate it from the map, do I still get the warmonger penalty for destroying a civ? I don't think I should get one b/c no one has met the city state except me but I want to know for sure before doing it in my current Shoshone game. Thanks in advance.

You won't get warmonger penalties with other civs for destroying things they haven't met yet.

However, you shouldn't bother conquering CS's. It's not worth it, given their benefits they provide for being allies.

Chum said:

You won't get warmonger penalties with other civs for destroying things they haven't met yet.

However, you shouldn't bother conquering CS's. It's not worth it, given their benefits they provide for being allies.

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I forget the name of it but this one is a hostile/militaristic CS and I'm already going wide so I don't need military gifts. I'd prefer not having to pay for his dyes, either, nor to have this big black mark in the middle of my borders on the mini-map . Now if it was a mercantile CS, that's a different story altogether! Thanks for telling me. He's a goner.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

I forget the name of it but this one is a hostile/militaristic CS and I'm already going wide so I don't need military gifts. I'd prefer not having to pay for his dyes, either, nor to have this big black mark in the middle of my borders on the mini-map . Now if it was a mercantile CS, that's a different story altogether! Thanks for telling me. He's a goner.

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Okay, but it's not worth it.

I don't even know what you mean about "going wide so you don't need military gifts."

Military isn't something that's needed for only one particular playstyle. You also don't need to pay for anything, you will just naturally stay allies with a CS that close via other quests like roads/trade routes/barbarians and the "longs for" quests that you will have a headstart on since no one has met them.

It's just not worth the extra happiness hit.

Chum said:

Okay, but it's not worth it.

I don't even know what you mean about "going wide so you don't need military gifts."

Military isn't something that's needed for only one particular playstyle. You also don't need to pay for anything, you will just naturally stay allies with a CS that close via other quests like roads/trade routes/barbarians and the "longs for" quests that you will have a headstart on since no one has met them.

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With a wide empire, I can easily churn out military units. The bonus from a military CS is better for smaller/taller empires IMO since they are focused on getting all the bonuses to their cities those free military units are a much bigger boon. It kinda does have to do with playstyle.

It's just not worth the extra happiness hit.

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Why not? I get unit experience, a free partially developed city when going liberty/wide, and a resource that I would otherwise constantly have to pay for or go out of my way to influence the CS. Eventually, those early quests will peter out and I will have to compete with other civs for their favor. I prefer to not have to do that especially if I can get the resource basically for free. Also, I won't receive a diplo hit and since I want to attack my nearest neighbour eventually, anyway, it's not like I'm only training units to take the one CS. A courthouse will eliminate annexation anger, the dyes will cover the city penalty and the first population point. Besides the courthouse, it's really no different than any other expansion city.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

With a wide empire, I can easily churn out military units. The bonus from a military CS is better for smaller/taller empires IMO since they are focused on getting all the bonuses to their cities those free military units are a much bigger boon. It kinda does have to do with playstyle.

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Free military units are useful for all empires. First of all, you get a UU at allies from each different CS, and it's something that's not in the game. So you could get Keshiks, or Camel Archers or something else that's extremely powerful. You're throwing that bonus away.

Second of all, it doesn't matter if you don't want it, it's still useful. They can be disbanded for gold (free gold) or they can be gifted to CS's (free influence). It's yet another bonus you're throwing away.

Why not? I get unit experience, a free partially developed city when going liberty/wide, and a resource that I would otherwise constantly have to pay for or go out of my way to influence the CS. Eventually, those early quests will peter out and I will have to compete with other civs for their favor. I prefer to not have to do that especially if I can get the resource basically for free. Also, I won't receive a diplo hit and since I want to attack my nearest neighbour eventually, anyway, it's not like I'm only training units to take the one CS. A courthouse will eliminate annexation anger, the dyes will cover the city penalty and the first population point. Besides the courthouse, it's really no different than any other expansion city.

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You're not getting the resource for free. You're paying upkeep on everything in the city. Being allies with the CS is getting the resource for free. You're paying maintenance on the buildings, you have increased tech costs, increased SP costs and an unhappiness hit. That's not free at all. For what, some dyes? That's a terrible trade.

In addition to all of that, conquering it instead of allying it means you lose a vote in the WC. That means you're going to have a harder time passing policies you want since other civs are going to have proportionally more votes.

I'm telling you, it's not worth it to conquer CS's.

Good points. Though I never really rely on CS for the WC votes. I never really find myself pushing up against the AI for any of the votes. You make really good points about the UU though as well as maintenance for the buildings in the new city. But is it really any different from an expansion? As far as I see it it's like not paying for a settler and getting a pre populated city with improved tiles while getting some experience for my troops. But I totally get what you mean when you say that it's free to ally the city state for those dyes. Still though, I think I'm going to conquer it just for fun. Even though it's not more efficient.

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blitzkrieg1980 said:

Still though, I think I'm going to conquer it just for fun. Even though it's not more efficient.

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Oh, I knew you were going to ignore me after your 2nd post. I'm just typing this for other people who might get something out of it.

It's your game, play the way you want to, but conquering CS's just generally isn't worth the effort, imo. If you want XP on your troops, it's way more efficient to just farm a Civ, you know, someone who could actually win the game or is at the very least competing against you. Doing that you can farm XP, capture workers for your own use, capture settlers to prevent their expansion, plunder trade routes and tiles for sport and profit AND cripple a direct competitor.

The CS is just free benefits, really. Better to leave them alone and divert your attention to the players that matter.

Agreed; after moving up in difficulty I have found diplomatic victory is the best last chance to snatch victory for defeat with some AI's. Every so often though I get feisty and just eliminate a city-state or two hahaha!

This is a rolling debate, but on Immortal and below, incorporating a Faith or Military CS into your empire is certainly viable, provided you have the happiness. Particularly if you don't care about Diplo victories (many of us do not . Especially if the diplo hit can be avoided.

Yeah I'm on Immortal level. I don't know I just like the idea of being able to take someone out of the game without suffering the rest of the game with Diplo pressure. And the AI just seem to have so many units so quickly on the highest levels. I can only speak for deity for the games that I've seen played on let's play videos. And it always seems like the AI already has like three units by the time the player can even get to him. I mean worker stealing is obviously easy. But I just don't get the idea of Archer era harassment can the AI just kill your archers?

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Eating a CS may be filling, crunchy, TASTY; but for the rest of the game, in the eyes of other CSs, you'll STINK, and the best diplomatic response from CSs will be hatred or worse. They'll tolerate Atilla; but they'll go to war with YOU at the drop of a hat, allying with anybody that DWs you .

I rarely declare war on CSs - I don't know why, it just always feels like bullying to me lol. They are usually poor at combat and taking their city is not as satisfying as having an ally that can provide resources/luxuries and also act as a buffer between yourself and a potential enemy Civ. Think about it, if he is on your Eastern border for example and the nearest Civ is east of him - you can do all of the fighting in and around the CS instead of them invading your land and pillaging. Perhaps others don't do this but I think having a few CSs around you can help shield you from attacks

HughFran said:

I rarely declare war on CSs - I don't know why, it just always feels like bullying to me lol. They are usually poor at combat and taking their city is not as satisfying as having an ally that can provide resources/luxuries and also act as a buffer between yourself and a potential enemy Civ. Think about it, if he is on your Eastern border for example and the nearest Civ is east of him - you can do all of the fighting in and around the CS instead of them invading your land and pillaging. Perhaps others don't do this but I think having a few CSs around you can help shield you from attacks

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I love CS especially on my border. It's just this one that was sitting in the middle of my blocked off land was irking me. He would buffer no one. I rarely see this scenario, too. I just felt like taking him out and having a nice solid block of land. The fact that no AI had met him yet made it just too tempting.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

It's just this one that was sitting in the middle of my blocked off land was irking me.

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The other perk you threw away was zero-maintenance roads. If you are friends or allies with a CS, then roads through their territories create city connections for you.

The fact that no AI had met him yet made it just too tempting.

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I am not sure the no-one-has-met-them-yet mechanic works the same for CS as it does AI civs. In any case, killing a single CS early has no long-term consequences.

• CS forgive the first CS DOW.
• CS only care about CS DOWs, they don’t care who you kill.
• AIs forgive the first DOW.
• Warmonger penalties are low early in the game.
• Warmongering is partially forgiven every new era.

The net of the above is that killing a CS early -- even a CS that all the AI have met -- probably never shows as even a light red diplomacy modifier.