The new Improvement System in Wildmana (bye bye cottage spam)

[to_xp]Gekko;9512137 said:
that doesn't make sense though, I'd rather have my workers build roads everywhere instead of just sitting idle. and I sure don't want to micromanage them to build roads everywhere just so they are not sitting idle instead...
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I agree.

I LIKE roads in every square, it helps me defend when i can move thru my territory faster than my enemies can. I LIKE the fact that my idle workers are out there doing this for me after all my resources are connected and improved.

Typically I have all but one worker Auto (actually if you use the buttons I do the trade route version not the generic improve or the improve this city version) I use the one for specific goals I want, the rest just magically happens.

Can I offer a counter suggestion for idle workers? Is it possible to make it so that a worker can stand idle on a spot and increase the output of that square by "X" in other words give workers a purpose once all the improving is done. I know htis could be done in a city by giving workers a spell they can cast that creates a building as long as they stay in the city but I think it would be more interesting to do it in the country side so invaders make them run away. Of course could be neat to do both. You decide if you want them adding 1:food: in the pasture or 1:hammers: in the city itself or 1:commerce: in the village
 
the roads everywhere is mainly a graphical issue for me, not a gameplay one. it just looks horrible when every tile, even the most remote and pristine forests are littered with roads. roads should be rare, important and less of an eye strain. i welcome the changes although they really don't address the real issue.

i would rather change them so they can be only build to connect cities, increase their movement bonus and give improvement next to them +1 :gold:, but they would not be buildable otherwise.
 
tesb said:
the roads everywhere is mainly a graphical issue for me, not a gameplay one. it just looks horrible when every tile, even the most remote and pristine forests are littered with roads. roads should be rare, important and less of an eye strain. i welcome the changes although they really don't address the real issue.

i would rather change them so they can be only build to connect cities, increase their movement bonus and give improvement next to them +1 :gold:, but they would not be buildable otherwise.
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I agree with the problem, however not sure about your solution: surely to reduce road spam we need to give improvements with roads -1 :gold: rather than plus; and allowing them only to be built between cities will limit international trade and strategic oppotunities (roads to forts in no-mans land etc.).

One way to reduce the graphical issue is to switch the current road graphic to the trail graphic previously used by the Mazatl/Cualli (remember that graphic that everybody complained about because it was virtually invisible). Then, make a second imporvement using current road (or paved road) graphic and call this 'Paved Road' or similar, available at construction, setting it to reduce food yiled on tile by one, increase movement to 1/3 (instead of 1/2 for normal roads), and setting AI to never build them.

Result: no change to AI at all, no visible roads all over the place unless you squint, and the human player only will have (if they choose) their cities connected with visible roads.
 
Sephi said:
Farm: +3 food, +1.5 unhappy population requires fresh water, can discover corn, wheat, rice
Pasture: +1food, +2production, +1.5 unhappy population, can discover cows, sheep, etc., can be build on either plains or one of the bonuses it is linked to
Winery: +0.5 happy population, can discover wine, requires fresh water+hills
Cottage: +1 commerce (later stages give more), +3 unhealth, increases the rate at which adjacent primary improvements discover resources, requires fresh water, natural yield of 1 or more food

Also, build orders now also show the actual changes for the city working the tile (where effects for adjacent tiles etc. are included)
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:eek:

This is balanced with a way to increase happiness, right? I mean, three wineries to offset one farm or pasture ... seems a little much. What is the justification of increasing unhappiness via improvements? I agree that something had to be done, but these changes are bewildering.
 
hbar said:
This is balanced with a way to increase happiness, right? I mean, three wineries to offset one farm or pasture ... seems a little much.
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Meh. Most people on Erebus are too happy anyway, IMO.

I like the idea of having roads cost gold.

I like the idea of having Workers boost yield. I don't like the plausible result, however, of parking a Worker on most tiles. (Though maybe with the upcoming unit maintenance cost changes it'd be OK.)

Overall the new system looks nifty!
 
@jack
my suggestion make only sense when you take into account that roads can only build to connect cities. i don't know if this would be even possible.

@hbar
keep in mind that primary improvements are much better now since they get a high bonus from secondary improvements (i.e. a windmill next to a farm). secondary improvements still give their regular bonuses, so something had to be done for an trade off. i would wait for the beta and see for yourself how it plays out.
 
Jabie said:
It's an intersting change though I can't see why farms would make the local citizenry unhappy.
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I would say it is forced labour which makes peasents unhappy. Or maybe the fact that farms are commonly visited by barbarians in Erebus. Although the reason behind the unhappy is purely gameplay. Farms with +3 food need something to balance them in the early game.
 
hbar said:
:eek:

This is balanced with a way to increase happiness, right? I mean, three wineries to offset one farm or pasture ... seems a little much. What is the justification of increasing unhappiness via improvements? I agree that something had to be done, but these changes are bewildering.
Click to expand...

It is balanced by higher tile yields. Although monuments cost 60 hammers now and give 1 happiness. And plantations now do not require a resource and might discover some luxury resources.

From my limited testing it feels that the early game is faster now thanks to the high tile yields but in the late game the cities are a bit smaller since you have less improved tiles that a city can work.
 
I figured as much - it's tough to see the big picture without a complete list of changes, and especially without the product in hand. I certainly trust your development instincts - it's just that unhappiness from improvements is such a departure from the Civ series, it is a bit surprising.
 
Is the unhapppiness only when a tile is worked or when tile can be worked or closes city or within city cross?
 
doesn't have to be worked. Unhappyness from improvement of a given tile will only be added to one city, so if the tile is within the BFC of multiple cities it will only count for the city that can actually work the tile.
 
Is anyone else completely confused about this? I am playing the beta and I have absolutely no idea what I am doing. I think that I am building 'resource camps' surrounding each of my main improvements (farm/pasture) and that each camp is adding +2 science (?!) +1 food and -1 production to that main tile, however I am not seeing this effect anywhere. This is a really odd system that is going to take some getting used to - I keep pillaging all my improvements due to unhappiness.

One piece of advice for other beta testers: don't bother building more than one worker at the start - you will only get to improve a couple of tiles around each city

EDIT: Considering your post above, Sephi, would this not mean that I should construct a winery on every riverside hill for +.5 happiness per winery; and thus make hilly rivers an exceptionally good city location?
 
If the worker automation AI is any good, you might want to try that and see what they do, then try to understand it?
 
I tried the automation AI and it did not work at all. All it did was building roads and adding and removing the same improvement. Perhaps it was because I do not have technology that would cause them to do anything useful. And perhaps the AI is fooled if you have a settlement far away and it will try to build long roads in wilderness to it.
 
Is anyone else completely confused about this? I am playing the beta and I have absolutely no idea what I am doing. I think that I am building 'resource camps' surrounding each of my main improvements (farm/pasture) and that each camp is adding +2 science (?!) +1 food and -1 production to that main tile, however I am not seeing this effect anywhere. This is a really odd system that is going to take some getting used to - I keep pillaging all my improvements due to unhappiness.

One piece of advice for other beta testers: don't bother building more than one worker at the start - you will only get to improve a couple of tiles around each city
Click to expand...

i have to agree i dont understand the new improvement system in the slightest. some techs say they will allow you to build some improvements (eg. masonry and quarry) but i cant (there are no other improvements anywhere near by, on a marble resource) the unhappyness from most seems a little crippling, and so civs with fallow have a massive advantage in that improvements do not cause unhappy at all (the new vamps seem to be pretty good with this). overall i think some intense documentation is needed to make this work, maybe even a popup for first timers to explain the new stuff cause im lost o_o...
 
afaik there was a bug in the techtree that showed the wrong techs enabling certain improvements (like mining enabling farms and cottages etc.) this is fixed in the next update.

as a general rule, don't build too many improvements early on. as for the new vampires, i could not test them with the new improvement system. if you have any feedback on them please report back. (i made a thread for them => Request at all beta tester, who ... )
 
one problem is that you cant build quarries at all ;D

on no terrain neither with nor without fresh water
 
i think sephi would appreciate it most if you posted bugs on the beta forum. feel free to make one thread per bug.

thank you :)
 
I have to agree with the two posters above, the new improvement system is downright Byzantine, as well a much more of a micromanagement hassle. The adjacency rules in particular are headache inducing.
 
i like the new improvement system.
if you got a happiness problem you just have too much improvements.
i usually build maybe one mine, two cottages, one trading post, as many lumbermills as i can and some stuff depending on the resources or place the city is in.
 
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