I tried opening (and finishing) both in a recent game as Korea. I ended up with only 4 cities (not enough good spots around me) and honestly, I think it was a mistake to do both to the end. I ended up the tech leader but Greece was runaway on the other side of the world and by the time I could get to him he was a 20 cities monstrosity that I couldn't beat (this was on Immortal). And yeah, Rationalism became available before I even finished the two trees. Of course as Korea this is a little faster than usual.
Liberty AND Tradition (2013 BNW)
- Thread starter TM Moot
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Tachii
Procrastinator
This is an interesting topic. I don't know which is the most optimal but for the Shoshones, combining the two is pretty effective.
Lots of flexibility to work around, though I don't know still if Tradition -> Settler liberty policy is better than just starting with Liberty for settler policy then go Tradition. You are giving up Hanging Gardens for the second approach but this approach allows you to get Pyramids earlier. The 25% and 2 workers is rather huge for growth + allows you to get settlers earlier.
Though going for collective rule means the tradition finisher is severely less effective. I wouldn't even bother finishing it tbh unless you're Poland.
Essentially this approach is trading a bit of growth from the capital to get your other cities growth/productions up especially if you get pyramids. It also allow you to get a GP around the Renaissance to either rush Sistine Chapel or Pisa.
Lots of flexibility to work around, though I don't know still if Tradition -> Settler liberty policy is better than just starting with Liberty for settler policy then go Tradition. You are giving up Hanging Gardens for the second approach but this approach allows you to get Pyramids earlier. The 25% and 2 workers is rather huge for growth + allows you to get settlers earlier.
Though going for collective rule means the tradition finisher is severely less effective. I wouldn't even bother finishing it tbh unless you're Poland.
Essentially this approach is trading a bit of growth from the capital to get your other cities growth/productions up especially if you get pyramids. It also allow you to get a GP around the Renaissance to either rush Sistine Chapel or Pisa.
It has just occurred to me that tradition could be good to dip into midway through liberty, not for the growth, but for Oligarchy. Having a spot to put your army when it isn't being used to make them free of maintenance can be a lifesaver for a mid to large empire earlyish on, as you may not have worked the kinks out of your economy yet, and the sheer cost of building maintenance can put you in the red if you're not careful/don't have markets yet. It can also give you a much needed boost to production for some borderline wonders you might like, such as Petra or the Sistine Chapel. Then you can grab a nice culture boost late game and focus on getting your capital semi tall. You miss out on the finisher being useful, though faith engineers is also very attractive. Finishing them both before moving onto something else, though, can take you right up to ideologies with very little of a payoff, I still think it'd be much better to pick one based on your empire type and only dabble in the other if needed.
When im playing Poland i mix Tradicion and Liberty, add to this Oracle and I can go Tradicion at normal speed but get free stuff from liberty as my UA perk. Good enought.
Piety, i have mixed feelings about Piety alone, since it provides no culture, and religion have synergy with more cities -> more shrines -> more double faith, and possibly more pantheon like tears of gods or oral tradicion. For Piety i would mix it with Liberty at least to collective rule just to pull out enought cities and shrines.
As for going Tradicion and Liberty on anything else, i think it is counterproductive since you mess with timing. You get free stuff, but not in right time. Tradicion opening postpone free settler, and even more free worker, and this worker is important! Even when you complete Tradicion it will be in the moment when you should have aqueduct built already.
And there are alternatives, instead of messing with liberty you can go just pure tradicion and get patronage and consulates and befriend every CS you can find on map.
Mixing tradicion and liberty opening you are messing with yout laiter stuff, harder time to fill rationalism or aestetic.
As for what is better Tradicion vs Liberty it really depends on civ, starting location, neighbourhood... there is no easy answear. Also at higher difficulties AI is cheating in every aspect and if you give it a time it will fil every spot on the map including island in the middle of the ocean, so there is just no time to start tradicion.
Piety, i have mixed feelings about Piety alone, since it provides no culture, and religion have synergy with more cities -> more shrines -> more double faith, and possibly more pantheon like tears of gods or oral tradicion. For Piety i would mix it with Liberty at least to collective rule just to pull out enought cities and shrines.
As for going Tradicion and Liberty on anything else, i think it is counterproductive since you mess with timing. You get free stuff, but not in right time. Tradicion opening postpone free settler, and even more free worker, and this worker is important! Even when you complete Tradicion it will be in the moment when you should have aqueduct built already.
And there are alternatives, instead of messing with liberty you can go just pure tradicion and get patronage and consulates and befriend every CS you can find on map.
Mixing tradicion and liberty opening you are messing with yout laiter stuff, harder time to fill rationalism or aestetic.
As for what is better Tradicion vs Liberty it really depends on civ, starting location, neighbourhood... there is no easy answear. Also at higher difficulties AI is cheating in every aspect and if you give it a time it will fil every spot on the map including island in the middle of the ocean, so there is just no time to start tradicion.
TomKQT
Prince
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- 525
The system is quite different now in BNW, because there isn't the choice "if you start this one, another one will lock for you".
And also the completing bonuses aren't sometimes so great.
I often start a lot of branches and pick just few policies from them. Based on what I acually want. Only much later I start to complete them, when I have a lot of culture.
But tradition with the wonder production bonus is the first priority for me, I like to complete as many wonders as possible.
And also the completing bonuses aren't sometimes so great.
I often start a lot of branches and pick just few policies from them. Based on what I acually want. Only much later I start to complete them, when I have a lot of culture.
But tradition with the wonder production bonus is the first priority for me, I like to complete as many wonders as possible.
VainoValkea
Emperor
Actually tradition's finisher is very good. Faith-buy Great Engineers and you can pray away when you need a wonder. Can't decide whether to build La Tour Eiffel or Broadway? Why not get both!
Yep, but you don't need it early. Which is why I prefer to go tradition after I finish liberty and even dabble in a 2nd tree like patronage/piety or rationalism first.
Instead, you can go Piety and get the reformation belief for faith buying GP. Or go Patronage, get a bunch of food, culture, happiness and faith for free and let CS gift GP to you.
Or go commerce and rushbuy science buildings to get a tech lead.
The alternatives are simply a lot better than Tradition.
Gives 4 free culture buildings. It's actually more powerful go get it later as more advanced buildings cost more hammers, grant stronger bonuses.
Pre-BNW, using Legalism to get 4 free Museums or Opera houses was a good culture boosting mechanic to pile on the culture for CV, saving tall empires precious hammers to build a wonder or something else. In BNW opening late is still viable for giving you lots of free art slots for your archaeological digs, but a little less powerful.
I've opened it later in my last game, getting free broadcast towers instead.
Pre-BNW, using Legalism to get 4 free Museums or Opera houses was a good culture boosting mechanic to pile on the culture for CV, saving tall empires precious hammers to build a wonder or something else. In BNW opening late is still viable for giving you lots of free art slots for your archaeological digs, but a little less powerful.
I've opened it later in my last game, getting free broadcast towers instead.
Pythakoreas
Chef Tain
^^
Free culture building available? If you already have a Monument it gives you Amphitheatres...
Free culture building available? If you already have a Monument it gives you Amphitheatres...
Yep and it's smart enough to 'save' the free building if you don't have tech for it.
Say you have all culture buildings built and unlocked legalism. You'll get the free buildings when you unlock your next culture building.
Tachii
Procrastinator
I was thinking lately how this can be more optimal than just Tradition finisher now.
Building the pyramids especially is now even easier than before. And with the worker bonus, the growth might be just as good as free aqueducts <-- considering you can just hardbuild aqueducts in your other cities since your tiles gets made much faster than before so you have hammers to do it.
Building the pyramids especially is now even easier than before. And with the worker bonus, the growth might be just as good as free aqueducts <-- considering you can just hardbuild aqueducts in your other cities since your tiles gets made much faster than before so you have hammers to do it.
I'm too lazy to do any math, but the numbers on page 1 are based on Monument first openers. If you open with, e.g., Scout-Scout-Worker, then you'll be sitting on 1 culture output when you get your first policy unlock. Liberty puts you at 2, Tradition puts you at 4. It's like getting a free Monument without having to dedicate precious early hammers to building one so early.
Tradition first, then going down Liberty for the free Settler is my usual opener. Taking Tradition means you have access to the situational policy for faster early Wonder construction if you end up racing for an early Wonder, and of course the beloved 4 free culture buildings policy whenever you decide to take it. If I'm playing on an especially crowded map and/or planning on a quick Monument anyway, I go Liberty first to beeline for the Settler policy.
Tradition first, then going down Liberty for the free Settler is my usual opener. Taking Tradition means you have access to the situational policy for faster early Wonder construction if you end up racing for an early Wonder, and of course the beloved 4 free culture buildings policy whenever you decide to take it. If I'm playing on an especially crowded map and/or planning on a quick Monument anyway, I go Liberty first to beeline for the Settler policy.
Unthinking Pain
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
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Yes
I just had this happen in a game where I founded a 4th city a couple turns before Legalism. Got 3 ampis and a monument in the new city
Scout>Scout>shrine /monutment is my usual opener.
Opportunity cost of a worker is way to high that early. Easier to just steal from a nearby CS or depending on Civs you play, workers coming a bit later from Liberty is cheaper.
You have to think about it this way.
A worker improving your tiles and creating improvements requires defense, and that early, means you also need to spend hammers on defense or lose out on extra scouting, where ruins could give you massive boosts in free tech/culture/faith/gold. I like to use my first war scout in one direction before I bring him back to defend.
Liberty to me still feels much stronger, even for civs like Venice!
Early workers made much more sense when you could sell luxuries for lump sum gold pre-BNW. With lump sum trades locked away in BNW until you get DoFs, early improvements are less important relative to early explore, getting culture/faith building up. That's not to minimize improvements though, every game is different and an improved capital certainly will help getting an early wonder. I just don't plan to have worker until after turn 30 or later.
I want to work on India next, so will see if tradition works better.
Opportunity cost of a worker is way to high that early. Easier to just steal from a nearby CS or depending on Civs you play, workers coming a bit later from Liberty is cheaper.
You have to think about it this way.
A worker improving your tiles and creating improvements requires defense, and that early, means you also need to spend hammers on defense or lose out on extra scouting, where ruins could give you massive boosts in free tech/culture/faith/gold. I like to use my first war scout in one direction before I bring him back to defend.
Liberty to me still feels much stronger, even for civs like Venice!
Early workers made much more sense when you could sell luxuries for lump sum gold pre-BNW. With lump sum trades locked away in BNW until you get DoFs, early improvements are less important relative to early explore, getting culture/faith building up. That's not to minimize improvements though, every game is different and an improved capital certainly will help getting an early wonder. I just don't plan to have worker until after turn 30 or later.
I want to work on India next, so will see if tradition works better.
It's not really that useful to save Legalism for that. Amphitheaters give you a whopping 1 (one) base culture. And a slot that can be filled be Great Works created by Great Writers whose Guild becomes available at the same time as the Amphitheatre itself. It will take at least 100 turns to create enough Great Writers to fill up those slots. And if you plan to go for culture, the Cultural Centers policy gives you a production bonus anyway.
This is what I said earlier, explaining the relatively weaker usefulness for 'saving' legalism.
It's still useful enough that it works to open it late.
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