[Suggestion] Post-war Germany

Hello all,

I hope I'm not in a wrong place to put this, I just wanted to share an idea of mine and see what people think about it. Basically, I find the representation of "Germany" in Civ really boring, since it really is more Prussia plus allied German states and it would be easy to fill 100 pages discussion about when to define Germany as such (1871 etc).

But with the recent BNW addition and the extreme focus on World Congress and diplomacy, I come to wonder whether it would not be very interesting to include Post-WW2 Germany in the Game as opposed to a historic version (in a next civ game perhaps).

I think with its dominant position in the EU, very strong economy (through exports) and the extreme reluctance to engage in military actions, always seeking the diplomatic route first, it would make such an interesting Civ to play. I had been toying with the idea that this Civ would receive military modifiers based on its diplomatic relations, perhaps upon entering a certain era (this would reflect the weak military and its reliance on NATO forces).

In addition, it could get a bonus for trade-routes to other continents (reflecting the export focus) and perhaps additional diplomats (reflecting its strong position in the UN given that it is not a member of the security council).

A civ like this might has to make use of defense agreements which to this date seem to be an uneasy settlement. So Post-ww2 Germany would receive heavy penalty for warmongering, but no penalties for being attacked. Preferred victory strategies with this civ would be any but domination, and tall rather than wide spread.

So, what do you guys think? I would love to hear some feedback

I've suggested a trade-oriented Germany before, to reflect the successful Hanseatic domination of Baltic trade for several centuries. Indeed there is more to Germany than heavy industry and warmongering.

I (as a german) hate the fact, that Germany is strictly a warmonger civ in Civ 5. Yes, the first half of the 20th century was a dark time full of bloodshed and crazy ideologies, but Germany is so much more. We are known for being hard working and innovative, the country of "Dichter und Denker" (poets/writers and "thinker"). If you take into account, that Bismark is representing Germany and not Adolf Hitler, than the trait should be about diplomacy and economy and not about total war.

Although I think the reason is more about funds and the approval of the Bundestag and not a weak military, it's a very interesting idea. I never thought of the fact that Germany is nearly always represented in one of its historical phases (mostly Bismarck or He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named). I like it!

sanchopanda said:

Although I think the reason is more about funds and the approval of the Bundestag and not a weak military, it's a very interesting idea. I never thought of the fact that Germany is nearly always represented in one of its historical phases (mostly Bismarck or He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named). I like it!

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In Civ 4 there was also Frederik the great, but he was actually the king of Prussia and not Germany, so it felt a little awkward. I'd love a new DLC with Prussia civ though

The Hanseatic League would make a pleasant UA for Germany. Trade Route bonuses to gold and science increased by 10-20% when making a declaration of friendship, both ways. Basically Sweden's bonus but with trade instead. Throw in a unique Workshop/Factory that has two more specialists and double Great Engineer points for each, and give the Panzer boosted combat bonuses for flanking and being backed up by an Air Sweep (yay for blitzkrieg tactics!), and you've got a strong, well-rounded nation with powerful points across the board, as opposed to the bland warmongerer we've got now. As much as I like the idea of Furor Teutonicus, it just...doesn't make much sense, and is now kinda obsolete with the Zulu about. Hell, maybe just give the barbarian recruitment to the Zulu or maybe even the Ottomans. I want a Germany that represents the smart diplomacy, trade centralization, and great productivity that makes them as powerful as they have been. Plus some crazy lightning warfare up in here.

Joschka said:

I (as a german) hate the fact, that Germany is strictly a warmonger civ in Civ 5. Yes, the first half of the 20th century was a dark time full of bloodshed and crazy ideologies, but Germany is so much more. We are known for being hard working and innovative, the country of "Dichter und Denker" (poets/writers and "thinker"). If you take into account, that Bismark is representing Germany and not Adolf Hitler, than the trait should be about diplomacy and economy and not about total war.

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+1. I grow tired in general of the same old reiterations of many European powers though. Like Napoleon = France.

sanchopanda said:

Although I think the reason is more about funds and the approval of the Bundestag and not a weak military, it's a very interesting idea

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Well that was sort of my point- the prioritization is = as little military as possible. I think there are plenty of UA's that could incorporate that idea; similar to Haile Selassie's UU's.

I understand the idea with the Hanseatic League and I think it would be pretty neat as an alternative to the more modern-day version I was going for. I think the main problem with making a civ too recent is the leader choice perhaps; however I think Konrad Adenauer is dead long enough to be deemed "controversial". I guess leader options for the Hanseatic league would be much easier! Thanks for the feedback

Germany is probably currently the best at reflecting the civ throughout its eras

UA-- classical era
UU1--middleages/renaissance
Leader--industrial era
UU2--modern/atomic

It does have the problem of not having a lotr of diversity.. it is all military focused. So perhaps replacing the landsnecht with a UB would be interesting.

Not sure about the representation (Also you can get all kinds of Germany-flavours via mods. From Friedrich to Merkel), but the gameplay feels boring. Barbs get killed of too easily by AIs at high difficulties.

As something of an American Germanophile, popular portrayals of Germany tend to bug me a little. I think our perception of Germany is still so colored by the first half of the 20th century that it takes some intentionality to break out of it. I don't think the trade route bonuses is the right way to go, just because we just got a whole ton of Civs that have trade route bonuses. But it would be nice to see another element of Germanic culture/history/heritage represented.

Plus, there's the balance and gameplay problems. Out of 43(?) civs, by my count, only 6 have uniques that focus exclusively on warmongering: Zulu, Ottoman, Japan, Mongolia, Denmark, and Germany. England was also like this until it was given a spy bonus in G&K. Of all these, Germany's probably the weakest by a good margin, with Japan a close second due to having the only UU that's less useful than Panzers. Adding to that is the fact that warfare is pretty punitive right now, especially early on, and you largely nullify the usefulness of barbarian conversion. With 1UPT you largely nullify the usefulness of Landsknechts. Weigh in the latecoming second UU and you have three uniques that just don't really do much. That just compounds that they are exclusively focused on exactly one strategy, and that strategy kind of sucks right now. Also abilities that scale down as difficulty increases are generally an atrocious idea to begin with.

That said, it's really great to see they chose to focus on the Germanic people, instead of strictly Germany in its current nation-state form, by including Furor Teutonicus and Landksnechts. Representing a range of German history is a nice touch, and sets them apart from a lot of the other civs that are really honed in on one particular point of their history (Greece, for example). Although I guess that has a lot to do with simple nomenclature: you can't really have an Ottoman empire than also encompasses Ataturk's republic (and an Ottoman ruler presiding over Turkey would sound off), but Germany/Germanic is a broad enough term you can apply it more broadly.

As a final thought, it does strike me as kind of weird that Bismarck is the civ leader, but none of the civ's bonuses coincide with Bismarck's rule. Given how instrumental the Iron Chancellor was in establishing the status quo of... Europe in general, you'd think they could spring for something like Blood and Iron.

Lyoncet said:

I think our perception of Germany is still so colored by the first half of the 20th century

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Most people know that Hitler is dead and Germany is full of Lederhosen and Oktoberfest

slowcar said:

Most people know that Hitler is dead and Germany is full of Lederhosen and Oktoberfest

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You forgot Sauerkraut!

Also a reminder: of the philosophers enumerated in Bruces' Philosopher song (video) the most are Germans. So obviously an alcohol fueled philosopher UU wouldn't be out of place!

I agree it's kind of a shame that Germany is continually portrayed as nothing more than a collection of bloodthirsty warmongers. Same with Japan. But gameplay-wise, there need to be a few warmongers, and it does accurately represent certain very long notable and often very long periods in the history of both nations; both were dominated by a military ethos until very recently (ie: 1945).