Ranged combat return fire and refinements

Ballista

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 31, 2012
Messages
10
a)

I would like to see ranged units returning fire when attacked with ranged attacks. If archers, e.g., place themselves in a position to shoot at an enemy, they are in a position to be shot at themselves.

An attacking ranged unit is still able to out-range the defender and by doing so attack with impunity, but if the attacker is within the ranged attack range of the defender, they will take damage from return fire.

b)

I'd like to give almost all units a ranged attack capability. In most cases this new attack would be weak in comparison with their melee attack and at least for pre-renaissance units would be 1 hex only. This represents skirmish attacks for earlier units and the fact that later units, while nominally melee, are usually capable of far more potent ranged attacks than an ancient era archer or slinger possessed.

This will give all units to possibility to defend themselves unless they are outranged. This encourages more careful positioning of ranged units to outrange the melee units' return fire.

It also allows for "light infantry" / "skirmish" / "scout" units with comparatively strong 1-hex ranged attack compared to other melee units of the same technological era. Perhaps allowing them to automatically flee from melee attacks, like slingers.

Combat rock-scissor-stone table:

Ranged attacks: Ranged units > Skirmishers > Melee
Melee attacks: Melee units > Skirmishers > Ranged

c)

Changes to ranged attack ranges would allow for more tactical fun and a bit less disbelief:

Skirmishers / Melee - 1 hex range
Archers / Muskets / Catapults - 2 hex range
Rifles / Cannons - 3 hex range
Howitzers / Rocket artillery - 4 hex range

d)

City bombardment is something I'm a bit undecided about. It might work with the above rule suggestions, though it will probably need some fine tuning regarding the strength of the ranged attack.

However, I'm leaning towards making city defence ranged attacks return fire only. Any ranged attacks from the city must come from the garrisoned unit. The range of the city attacks could be connected to the level of city defences:

No defence - No ranged attacks
City walls - 1 hex range
Castle - 2 hex range
Arsenal - 3 hex range
Military base - 4 hex range

This would work well with another proposal, that I think I'll make another thread about: A new Militia/Freeshooter/Partisan/Insurgent-type unit that is available to buy for 0 gold in a city, but which has 0 movement. It would have a fairly weak ranged attack, but would allow cities without a regular military unit to have some sort of ranged attack.

===

These ideas would obviously change quite a bit of the combat dynamics of the game, but in my opinion it would be for the better; creating the need for more careful placement of units and more risky use of ranged attacks as well as the option of creating units (like the skirmishers) that play into the new mechanics of ranged combat.

I'd love to hear if you are interested in these changes, what problems these suggestions cause, and even better if you have ideas how to solve these problems. I'm sure that to many, this is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist for them, but to me it addresses some issues I've always found to be strange about the game. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
 
This is a really good idea, and I assume it could be applied to naval vessels as well.

The only thing I'm hesitant about is increasing artillery/rocket artillery range up to four given they already have indirect fire I think. I would need to see how it would work in-game first to be completely sure.

As for a weak-ranged insurgent unit, you could probably give it Blitz to start off with so the city can deal a little extra damage.
 
I thought what makes ranged units special is that they do not take damage for their attacks and for this advantage do not return melee attacks. Thus are vulnerable to melee or 2nd line units.

I do not understand why this needs to be taken away or where the advantage lies.
 
It doesn't feel right that an artillery can bombard another artillery without there being counter-artillery fire. For the most part, similar-era ranged units sound like they would outrage melee contemporaries, so there wouln't be a response a lot of times. However, an archer on a hill next to a rifleman being able to fire on the archer without the archers being hit by is...amusing.

Though, an archer with indirect fire could fix that right up.
 
It doesn't feel right that an artillery can bombard another artillery without there being counter-artillery fire.
Artillery cannot bombard another artillery that attacked it on the next round - even though it has indirect fire? Mine can.
 
It can. I'm saying that artillery, when bombarded, should counterbattery right back in response.
 
It can. I'm saying that artillery, when bombarded, should counterbattery right back in response.
so getting an action for free? Why can a battery being bombared by 3 ranged units supply 4 times damage - 3x counter and 1 self and the others only once?

can you fire faster on defense than on offense?
 
This is a really good idea, and I assume it could be applied to naval vessels as well.

The only thing I'm hesitant about is increasing artillery/rocket artillery range up to four given they already have indirect fire I think. I would need to see how it would work in-game first to be completely sure.

As for a weak-ranged insurgent unit, you could probably give it Blitz to start off with so the city can deal a little extra damage.
Yes, it would definitely work for naval vessels too. An exchange of broadsides!

The 4 hex range of modern artillery might be too strong, but on the other hand they are likely to face units with 3 hex range attacks themselves, so they either need to get far away (and thereby depend on other units to provide sight of the unit they are attacking), or make use of the indirect fire and hide from direct counter-attack.

I'm not sure about how to exactly balance militia/insurgent unit, maybe you're right that they would need blitz to be useful.
 
so getting an action for free? Why can a battery being bombared by 3 ranged units supply 4 times damage - 3x counter and 1 self and the others only once?

can you fire faster on defense than on offense?
But this is how it works for melee attacks. Other units don't get to only defend only against the first melee attack. They defend and lose damage and power from each attack. They don't get it for free.
 
so getting an action for free? Why can a battery being bombared by 3 ranged units supply 4 times damage - 3x counter and 1 self and the others only once?

can you fire faster on defense than on offense?

If anything, a free attack exists already. If a melee unit attacks another unit, the attacked unit responds likewise. Therefore, how is this any different from range responding to range with range?

With that argument, you could justify getting rid of the melee counterattack when a unit attacks another unit.
 
If anything, a free attack exists already. If a melee unit attacks another unit, the attacked unit responds likewise. Therefore, how is this any different from range responding to range with range?

With that argument, you could justify getting rid of the melee counterattack when a unit attacks another unit.

Melee units may defend - ranged don´t at this time. So they are not alike
 
And we're suggesting that they can defend.

I don't get it. If you shoot someone with artillery shells, they probably would shoot back because the alternative is standing around not trying to get the other guy to stop shelling you.
 
Sounds like an awesome mltplyr feature, but the AI might not handle this extra complexity very well (efficiently)?
 
And we're suggesting that they can defend.

I don't get it. If you shoot someone with artillery shells, they probably would shoot back because the alternative is standing around not trying to get the other guy to stop shelling you.
ok.
One person is shooting you - you shoot back.
Two persons are shooting you - you shoot back at both of them
Three persons are shooting you - you shoot back at all of them.
An infinite number of persons are shooting you - you become superman and shoot back at all of them before you succumb to your wounds.

I don't get it. Each unit has one action. The attacker(s) shoots and is(are) done. The defender unit - wounded though because it is second - can shoot at the attacker and choose to attack someone else using it's one action. And yes artillery does need time for set up, aiming and shooting - archers as well. Just because 3 units are attacking you, you do not gain super powers to be able to fire your arrows three times at fast as return fire.

Gatling guns and machine guns are treated differently - they have a defence because it is hard to storm a defended position with automatic ranged weapons.
 
Sounds like an awesome mltplyr feature, but the AI might not handle this extra complexity very well (efficiently)?
as it's an automatic mechanism, it helps the AI.

ok.
One person is shooting you - you shoot back.
Two persons are shooting you - you shoot back at both of them
Three persons are shooting you - you shoot back at all of them.
An infinite number of persons are shooting you - you become superman and shoot back at all of them before you succumb to your wounds.

I don't get it. Each unit has one action. The attacker(s) shoots and is(are) done. The defender unit - wounded though because it is second - can shoot at the attacker and choose to attack someone else using it's one action. And yes artillery does need time for set up, aiming and shooting - archers as well. Just because 3 units are attacking you, you do not gain super powers to be able to fire your arrows three times at fast as return fire.

Gatling guns and machine guns are treated differently - they have a defence because it is hard to storm a defended position with automatic ranged weapons.
it works exactly as for melee units. infinite attack = infinite defense until HP = 0.
 
ill put here another indoiacy i noticed; on a huge earthlike map, i send a submartine trought the ice op top of the map aboven russia. it can do this, but although under the ice barberian arches kepts shooting at it en even doing some damage hahaha, i mean the ships of the babarians can not see it but arches on land can?? it is idiocy, like i said before it is so badly thought trough, a civ without destroyers can notice a sub going into their area of teritory ,archers see and hit subs under ice, most idear here about ranged combat are nice, but i rather see this kind of stupidity solved first
 
ok.
One person is shooting you - you shoot back.
Two persons are shooting you - you shoot back at both of them
Three persons are shooting you - you shoot back at all of them.
An infinite number of persons are shooting you - you become superman and shoot back at all of them before you succumb to your wounds.

I don't get it. Each unit has one action. The attacker(s) shoots and is(are) done. The defender unit - wounded though because it is second - can shoot at the attacker and choose to attack someone else using it's one action. And yes artillery does need time for set up, aiming and shooting - archers as well. Just because 3 units are attacking you, you do not gain super powers to be able to fire your arrows three times at fast as return fire.

Gatling guns and machine guns are treated differently - they have a defence because it is hard to storm a defended position with automatic ranged weapons.

as it's an automatic mechanism, it helps the AI.


it works exactly as for melee units. infinite attack = infinite defense until HP = 0.

Yeah. I don't get the difference between infinite melee and infinite range response. Though, you do make a point that a siege engine should probably be set up first.
 
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