Starting position dictating affinity and choices

BanzaiJoe · Oct 21, 2014

(Long time Civ 1 through 3 player, came back for Civ4:Civilizations and SMAC, glad to be back playing. woefully unprepared for B.E.

)

I've been watching several LP and the thing I noticed is the concentration of affinity based resource. Conceptually it makes sense, but I do wonder about freedom to choose. I hear, "I guess I'm going affinity X" based on the explorer discovering a lode of affinity-based resources. That does not seem like a player-based choice to me.

I'm all for adapting strategy. This seems like a significant constraint to choice though. For example, I have an idea I want to try. I pick my sponsor, cargo, etc. I land, I get the lay of the land, my warrior goes 5 hexes and huh... time to rethink my entire approach. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the adapting to a new strategy given the new constraint.

The real issue is now my technology choices are aligned with affinity. My technology choices affect what I can build both as buildings and units. How much of the game is me along for the ride making-do?

It is quite possible that I have been off getting spoiled by free-wheeling tech webs and playing twitch games that I have to recalibrate my way of thinking.

What say ye?

Miravlix · Oct 21, 2014

It's one of the really huge changes from C5 and looking at "first game choice" threads, something a lot of people don't want to accept.

The way maps has been in LP's so far, really hard enforce you toward a certain affinity and thats with "end of LP" hindsight

This on the other hand makes the exploration phase in the early game really important, as you need to explorer, to find out what affinity to choose.

Gort · Oct 21, 2014

I will be interested to play a strategy game where I actually have to adapt my strategy instead of having it all planned out from turn 1.

Most of my civ games go "OK, I'll play India, they suit early tall play so I'll go Tradition at first, then pick up Patronage, Rationalism and finally into Freedom to leverage my specialists".

It'll be refreshing having to adapt on-the-fly to what's going on on the map.

Esmer · Oct 21, 2014

Is it really that important to base your affinity on the very first resource you discover? Haven't watched many LPs, but surely it's not a big deal if the resource you wanted is a bit away from your starting point and you can access it with your 2nd or 3rd base?

jaldaen · Oct 21, 2014

I'm fine with it because I tend to be very flexible in my games. In a way, this sort of situation reminds me of those times when I'd choose a faction with Iron or Horse-based UUs and end up not having those resources around. If I really wanted to use those UUs, then I restarted a new map. Most times I just lived with it and mourned the loss of my UUs.

Of course, I always thought UUs shouldn't require resources for the fact that such starts could happen... so I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that I might want to play a purity game and end up with no Floatstone or Titanium near me.

jaldaen · Oct 21, 2014

One more thing...

I wouldn't mind someone putting together a map mod where you could choose the affinity you wanted to play and the map would ensure you started near the appropriate resources.

Hmmm... I'll go post this in the suggestions thread.

Cyon · Oct 21, 2014

I guess that in most cases you can choose which direction you wan't to expand, so even if your capital suggests one affinity direction your second city can be placed near other affinity resources. The extra resources you don't need for your units can always be used for buildings or be sold yo the AI.

Or you can just reload the map until you get what you want...

Miravlix · Oct 21, 2014

Esmer said:
Is it really that important to base your affinity on the very first resource you discover? Haven't watched many LPs, but surely it's not a big deal if the resource you wanted is a bit away from your starting point and you can access it with your 2nd or 3rd base?

If you want a small amount of affinity units, you better make sure almost ALL your towns has your main affinity resource and all your expansion should be towards gaining more.

You have buildings as well as units sucking up tons of affinity resources.

CraigMak · Oct 21, 2014

This is something that good Civ 5 players already do. They decide what kind of strategy they're going to use once they have done a little scouting. Not much room to expand? Time for full tradition, lots of resources around for cities? Liberty. Your pantheon is also decided by your surroundings often as well as tech prioritization. Lot's of marble/stone? Beeline masonry, get stone circles and rush pyramids. Or how about a ruin gave me free calendar, looks like I'm rushing stonehenge this game.

gunnergoz · Oct 21, 2014

I have yet to play the game myself but have watched enough preview vids to convince me that BE will most easily be played in an opportunistic manner - but - players seeking a challenge can always land with a particular Affinity and play style in mind, then go hunting for the resources to support it.

That strategy will be tricky, admittedly, but some gamers complain about supposedly weak game AI's, yet they won't always try difficult strategies themselves that would pit them more evenly against the AI.

Lord Shadow · Oct 21, 2014

Sure, it's somewhat advantageous to pick an affinity in accordance to the resources you've found near your starting location, but I don't really see it as critical for two reasons:

a) You only really start using affinity resources by the mid-late game, which means you have plenty of time to procure what you need for the affinity you want.

b) Such resources aren't as vital as, say, Oil in late Civ games. They're required for a number of special units, but there should be plenty of standard alternatives which, while perhaps less powerful, they're not disastrously so.

I only see it as a truly enforced choice in very competitive multiplayer against ruthless humans. Maybe.

gunnergoz · Oct 21, 2014

Lord Shadow said:
Sure, it's somewhat advantageous to pick an affinity in accordance to the resources you've found near your starting location, but I don't really see it as critical for two reasons:

a) You only really start using affinity resources by the mid-late game, which means you have plenty of time to procure what you need for the affinity you want.

b) Such resources aren't as vital as, say, Oil in late Civ games. They're required for a number of special units, but there should be plenty of standard alternatives which, while perhaps less powerful, they're not disastrously so.

I only see it as a truly enforced choice in very competitive multiplayer against ruthless humans. Maybe.

I may be talking from inexperience here, but from what I've seen so far, if you want satellites, VC wonders and late game superunits, you will need almost every strategic resource out there at some point and certainly by end game. The exceptions may be the one your Affinity does not specifically call for (e.g. Xenomass is irrelevant to a Supremacy player but essential to the Harmony player.)

EddieTheLion · Oct 21, 2014

Honestly I wish they didn't have the affinity specific resources and instead made the affinities more unique, so which you chose was more a strategic and roleplaying decision than just "I have 10 firaxite, Supremacy it is".

Gort · Oct 21, 2014

Lord Shadow said:
Sure, it's somewhat advantageous to pick an affinity in accordance to the resources you've found near your starting location, but I don't really see it as critical for two reasons:

a) You only really start using affinity resources by the mid-late game, which means you have plenty of time to procure what you need for the affinity you want.

b) Such resources aren't as vital as, say, Oil in late Civ games. They're required for a number of special units, but there should be plenty of standard alternatives which, while perhaps less powerful, they're not disastrously so.

I only see it as a truly enforced choice in very competitive multiplayer against ruthless humans. Maybe.

This is what I've seen from MadDjinn's games - in his Kavithan game he started next to an enormous cache of Floatstone and went Harmony anyway. Didn't seem to cripple him.

Miravlix · Oct 21, 2014

Gort said:
This is what I've seen from MadDjinn's games - in his Kavithan game he started next to an enormous cache of Floatstone and went Harmony anyway. Didn't seem to cripple him.

MD expanded with a very hard focus on getting xenomass and we aren't simply talking your starting town need 10 xenomass or whatever, since the affinity resources comes into play later.

Look at MD's Pre-Release LP at the moment. Something like zero xenomass and very little floatstone and no way to expand into more xeno/floatstone, anything else than the supremacy affinity used, would have been troublesome and that's with "hindsight" now most of the map is explored.

omniclast · Oct 21, 2014

It seems like in most of the LPs we've seen, the players don't really know the game well enough to have a preference, so they use the availability of affinity resources as a way to make an arbitrary decision. We haven't yet seen someone try to play towards a particular affinity with a dearth of local affinity resources, so we don't know how hard it will be. I imagine that it will rely a lot more on diplomacy for trades, and on more peaceful play in general since you won't have the resources to build a large army (just like when you have no oil in civ5). Building low-pop outposts to grab distant resources also seems more viable, especially since, per MD's casts, the AI leaves a lot if territory open into the late game.

gunnergoz · Oct 21, 2014

Miravlix said:
MD expanded with a very hard focus on getting xenomass and we aren't simply talking your starting town need 10 xenomass or whatever, since the affinity resources comes into play later.

Look at MD's Pre-Release LP at the moment. Something like zero xenomass and very little floatstone and no way to expand into more xeno/floatstone, anything else than the supremacy affinity used, would have been troublesome and that's with "hindsight" now most of the map is explored.

One gamer's "troublesome" is another gamer's challenge.

omniclast · Oct 21, 2014

Another random thought: I'd like to see trade stations that offer strat resources, and more at higher levels. Since they can be worked at any distance you would not have to actually find/own the tile. (Would have to defend them though...)

SS-18 ICBM · Oct 21, 2014

EddieTheLion said:
Honestly I wish they didn't have the affinity specific resources and instead made the affinities more unique, so which you chose was more a strategic and roleplaying decision than just "I have 10 firaxite, Supremacy it is".

Yeah, doesn't make sense in other ways too. Supremacy's about overcoming environmental limitations on human potential, but guess what? You need something from the environment that comes in limited amounts anyway.

Gort · Oct 21, 2014

omniclast said:
Another random thought: I'd like to see trade stations that offer start resources, and more at higher levels. Since they can be worked at any distance you would not have to actually own find/own the tile. (Would have to defend them though...)

I wouldn't think much of these since they'd be like buying Iron in Civ 5 - if I lose access to it, I just crippled my own army.

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