(NEW)Players Guide to the C2C Combat Mod - Size Matters game option VERSION 2.0

cool

I still would like to move most of the unit / building / resource stuff in the core.... It is so merged in the building web that you can't disable them anyways and most of them are around so long that we don't need to have them seperate to work on them...

Faustmouse said:

Ah makes sense now.
Is it always "only" 1 XP? And always to the least experienced unit with the correct CC?

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Yes... if there are 2 or more units tied for the least xp then it'll give to whichever one has received the least amount of ongoing training rewards.

I figured 1/rnd was a lot in and of itself so we wouldn't want to exceed that without it being achieved by crossing differing combat classes (such as a city that ongoing trains both Combatants and Melee with only a lone Axemen unit stationed there for example. The Axemen would be getting the benefit of both.)

Faustmouse said:

Once we have a building list, I'd be happy to make suggestions for this system again, like for the captive mod. Unless RWN want's to do that of course. This list will also help me to suggest some capture resitance for buildings.

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Sure... also feel free to offer your thoughts on the bombard planning for units that's coming together on the combat mod planning document.

Rwn said:

Nah, don't feel bad, as I said, most of the work was assembling the unit database, which will be useful for any subsequent analysis. I actually do feel a bit bad myself that you had to spend all day on this (I was on easter holidays in the last three days and only saw your request when I got back yesterday); I did see some values were already in your file, but thought you needed to see whether some were wrong or obsolete.

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Yes, it helped. One small other thing could be useful there... I need a list of those units I have listed on that page that cannot attack. They need to be removed from consideration and I figured you'd be able to get that list done before I could. I tried using Excel to open our xml but found it was very difficult since we have a modular mechanism so had gotten a bit frustrated with it - but then that was before I understood our unit file structure as well as I do now so it might now be something I could sort out a bit better.

Rwn said:

Certainly not I'll build the building database and sort Faustmouse's request and yours in the coming days.

At some point I'll try to build a truly complete and easy-to-read database of all units and buildings properties in a nice table; right now I'm doing some messy hackish things to extract the properties we're interested in, but I hope to find a way to do it for all at once so anyone can filter/sort whatever he wants.

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I once tried to put it all into an MS Access database but found we had too many tags on our objects to make this work very easily. Again... UNDERSTANDING how these tags work now it might go a bit easier if I tried again but I'm still not sure it would be worth the effort given the rate of change that takes place and the updating headaches it would mean.

OK, so as always, when you figure a way to get something done efficiently, another issue appears and more than makes it up for the time you gained...

Getting the building database the same way as the unit database is turning into a hellish nightmare due to the much larger number of buildings (more than 3000) and complexity (about 300 types of tags IIRC... with several only used in a handful of buildings). I had to split the master xml file in 4 parts, get all tags and even out the tags between each file; now I think I have a decent building database, though I'm not 100% sure (let's say, I'm 95% sure ) that there aren't some mixups in duplicate tags (such as PrereqTech used both for enabling a building and for enabling a bonus for a building).

Anyway, a few comments for now:
- @Faustmouse: Getting all tags for each building would be excruciatingly painful (unless I miraculously find an easier way). Could you point out which tags you're particularly interested in (in addition to the highest iGridX of the PrereqTechs?)? I can provide the list of all tags if you want.
- @Thunderbrd: I haven't yet looked into the xp/free promos buildings, but it should be doable
- I'll try to get some numbers to identify the least used tags, maybe there's some room for optimization (at the very least in readability)
- More broadly, this makes me wonder, does C2C really needs >3000 buildings?... I mean, I like C2C for the crazy amount of stuff added, but that seems a bit overkill... On average, it's 300 new buildings available added during each era! OK, this includes wonders and some buildings become obsolete, but still...

Rwn said:

all[/I] tags for each building would be excruciatingly painful (unless I miraculously find an easier way). Could you point out which tags you're particularly interested in (in addition to the highest iGridX of the PrereqTechs?)? I can provide the list of all tags if you want.

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Did you added all buildings tags like <iCost> etc?
If so, this was a horrible misunderstanding! I just wanted the tag for a building, so the final list would look like:

DNA Lab DNA_LAB X=....
(Name) (Tag) (iXGrid)


Whenever I come around to play another game I'll make a list of buildings I never build and why. But so far I used most of them. Many are crimes, combo buildings (that require 2 Resources in vicinity) etc... And we do have a lot of techs.

Some buildings could be merged thou.

Faustmouse said:

Did you added all buildings tags like <iCost> etc?

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That's how I build the database, yes (something I need to do before processing the requests, so no harm done ).

I'm not sure I can easily get the "clean" name (what you call Name), but it should be relatively obvious based on the building type (the name in uppercase with underscores, what you call Tag). Anyway, if you just need the XGrid, it's already mostly finished (I just don't have it at hand right now).

Whenever I come around to play another game I'll make a list of buildings I never build and why. But so far I used most of them. Many are crimes, combo buildings (that require 2 Resources in vicinity) etc... And we do have a lot of techs

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Good idea, I'll do that also.

Still, from my experience when playing, I recall spending most of my time selecting buildings (even with queuing); maybe some buildings could be merged? I also remember some wonders that did nothing because they were unfinished.

You aren't the first to comment on the volume of buildings like that - but with so many being upgrades of others and with free buildings being assigned to new cities and so on, I feel we have a workable amount still. You might want to get familiar with the build lists (the hammer in the top left of the main screen) if it's too much for ya even with queuing. I also suggest getting comfortable with shift-city select and ctrl-city select to select many city queues at once for getting a newly unlocked building at the front or end of all city queues.

i think hydro would be interested in iCost as well.

The name of the building is in the gametext files. its the name actually displayed in game. While it is mostly the same as the tag, sometimes it is not. and its a hell to search for correct tags so such a list would be good to have

the hammer icon isnt working for me tb. well, it is, but after each new building it needs like 10-15sec load time... VERY un usuable... and i couldnt edit the xmL file as well....

Rwn said:

@Faustmouse: Getting all tags for each building would be excruciatingly painful (unless I miraculously find an easier way). Could you point out which tags you're particularly interested in (in addition to the highest iGridX of the PrereqTechs?)? I can provide the list of all tags if you want.

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Are you really considering to do this manually thats just for 3000 buildings.
It would be easier to write a little programm, script or whatever to do this.

There is all ready a program to do this. Koshling provided one see here.

Here the files!

There are a few names I couldn't find in the various Gametext files; I thought I got them all, but after rebuilding my Gametext database for the 4th time, I'm a bit tired to look after each one with a different name syntax, if that's really a problem I can add them later on.

I also added a few more infos, such as GridX for the obsolete Tech and the cost.

For Thunderbrd's file, each CombatType column gives the unit class whose xp gain is in the next column (same with domain).

alberts2 said:

Are you really considering to do this manually thats just for 3000 buildings.
It would be easier to write a little programm, script or whatever to do this.

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Err, no, the point is precisely to avoid manually looking into the files!

For reference, here's the list of all tags sorted by number of times used (SVN 7262 IIRC ; I forgot to mention it for the files above, it's the same).

Notes:
- Some tags are used more than once in a building (hence the higher value for iCommerce, etc. than BuildingClass). I could probably count the number of buildings which use the tags instead of the tags, but that's significantly more work and the raw number is already a good indication of the tag's popularity
- Some buildings have several entries (Faustmouse/Thunderbrd, you might notice this also in the files above), that's why we have more BuildingClass than Civilopedia entries for example
- Some tags are used several times for different purposes for the same building (such as iCommerce), that's why there are some repeated tags with a number at the end

Edit: updated version here

Rwn said:

Here the files!

There are a few names I couldn't find in the various Gametext files ; I thought I got them all, but after rebuilding my Gametext database for the 4th time, I'm a bit tired to look after each one with a different name syntax, if that's really a problem I can add them later on.

I also added a few more infos, such as GridX for the obsolete Tech or the cost.

For Thunderbrd's file, each CombatType column gives the unit class whose xp gain is in the next column (same with domain).

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Thanks! That's a good 'step I' implementation there. I put the data on an online doc here so we could work on it further from this point. I'm still in the midst of the bombard planning there (which I THINK is going well) and once I'm done with that and some unit adjustment backlogs I can get to further devel work on the data you just compiled. (You're welcome to try to follow the plan as I laid it out though to present some suggestions at least.)

- Some tags are used more than once in a building (hence the higher value for iCommerce, etc. than BuildingClass). I could probably count the number of buildings which use the tags instead of the tags, but that's significantly more work and the raw number is already a good indication of the tag's popularity

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Are you saying they're used more than once when NOT embedded inside another tag? These could be oopses.

- Some buildings have several entries (Faustmouse/Thunderbrd, you might notice this also in the files above), that's why we have more BuildingClass than Civilopedia entries for example

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Completely normal if you're going through all of the modular listings compiled into the same list. Modular entries edit the core or previously loaded version of the game object (such as a building) when they are given more definition this way. This allows us to use modules as a sort of 'gameoption' so that whether the module is active or not makes the building modified or not. This certainly complexifies data compiling like these efforts significantly.

- Some tags are used several times for different purposes for the same building (such as iCommerce), that's why there are some repeated tags with a number at the end

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Totally normal if used as embedded within another tag. Many tags are array, struct or vector definitions and use these as simple ways to add further definition to the use of a given tag. A proper count you're looking for would need to ignore these right?

Thunderbrd said:

Are you saying they're used more than once when NOT embedded inside another tag? These could be oopses.

Completely normal if you're going through all of the modular listings compiled into the same list. Modular entries edit the core or previously loaded version of the game object (such as a building) when they are given more definition this way. This allows us to use modules as a sort of 'gameoption' so that whether the module is active or not makes the building modified or not. This certainly complexifies data compiling like these efforts significantly.

Totally normal if used as embedded within another tag. Many tags are array, struct or vector definitions and use these as simple ways to add further definition to the use of a given tag. A proper count you're looking for would need to ignore these right?

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The objective of the notes were to give some indications on the limitations of the table as I built it, not to point out some problems in the xml file itself

While I'm on it, I also forgot to add a table I had built earlier when we talked about a surprising "upgrade that is in fact a downgrade", so I've looked if there were other units that upgraded into units whose prereqTech was lower than the non-upgraded unit :


I'm not really sure about the others (post-apocalyptic warriors "downgrades" could be intended), but the catapult (mangonel in game IIRC) is definitely odd as it upgrades into siege onager, which is unlocked by a tech (Ancient Ballistics) which is a prerequisite to discover the tech unlocking the catapult (Siege Warfare)...

These lists are so awesome
The tag lists are interesting. I'm pretty sure we used the RiverPlotYieldChanges and the TechYieldModifier more then once. But good job

Faustmouse said:

These lists are so awesome
The tag lists are interesting. I'm pretty sure we used the RiverPlotYieldChanges and the TechYieldModifier more then once. But good job

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Hm, yeah, it seems that's also an artefact due to the way I generated this table: for example RiverPlotYieldChanges is a tag that usually has some <iYield> subtags in it, so the table only counted them in iYield. Tags with only 1 entry probably all fall into this case (and I really need to be a bit more rigorous in building this table after all )

• Littoral Combat Ship is set one quality too low apparently - noted and will be repaired.
• Ambusher to Rogue hmm... this is due to the criminal line being offset by -1 while the strike team line which crosses over is not. There's always been debate about which should upgrade to which and perhaps I can convince Hydro/DH/SO that we should make Rogues upgrade into Ambushers now that here we actually have a reason... (and perhaps we should give ambushers 4 strength base - they seem a little underpowered to me and have for a while now.)
• Chokonu is one quality stage too high at the moment - noted and will be fixed.
• UNITCLASS_REN_IMP_GUARD is TWO volume ranks too low - noted and will be fixed.
• Monk - Medic Monks should not be upgrading to Medics in the first place... need to figure out which medical unit it SHOULD upgrade to but it'd lose a lot going 'up' to medic even in the core.
• Inniskilling - Sniper Another downward 'upgrade' in the base unit scheme... they should upgrade to the next stage on the strike team list at least. Will need to research the proper shift.
• Post Apocalyptic Grenadier - Ancient Flamethrower Another downward 'upgrade' that should be repaired though it may do so so that it can take on the next best thereafter that's actually available but it's still set to a potential upgrade for loss so that's not quite right.
• Rocket Artillery - Hover Artillery A downward upgrade perhaps but maybe due to an under strengthed Hover Artillery. I'll need Hydro to comment...
• UNITCLASS_SCOUT_MECH Scout units are generally given a -1 offset which it has... but the Walker isn't a scout is it? Maybe I should let scouts catch up to a 0 offset at this point and give it a +1 Group Volume or +1 Size... Or if Walker is supposed to be a scouting unit then it's an offset too high instead.
• Urban Horseman - Curraissier Another downward Upgrade that may just be set that way so it can upgrade to whatever the current 'best' unit in that upgrade chain may be.
• NLOS Cannon - Levitation Artillery I think the Levitation Artillery is simply underpowered... I'll let Hydro comment.
• UNITCLASS_DESTROYER is one Combat Quality rank too low. Thanks for pointing that out.

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to review these with notes on updates I'm making:

• Littoral Combat Ship: repaired the quality setting.
• Ambusher to Rogue: Upped Ambusher to 4 str and made him an upgrade of rogue rather than the other way around - note: still need to make sure all Strike Teams are reviewed for Size Matters CC balances. There may be some mistakes there and I might be able to see them on the lists generated here.
• Chokonu: is one quality stage too high at the moment - fixed.
• UNITCLASS_REN_IMP_GUARD: is TWO volume ranks too low - fixed.
• Monk - Medic: Monks should not be upgrading to Medics in the first place... will now upgrade to Ambulance.
• Inniskilling - Sniper: Another downward 'upgrade' in the base unit scheme... Will be upgrading to MSNIPER.
• Post Apocalyptic Grenadier - Ancient Flamethrower: Hydro clarified the intent is correct here.
• Rocket Artillery - Hover Artillery: Hover Artillery appears very understrengthed for its position on the upgrade chain - str adjusted to 95.
• UNITCLASS_SCOUT_MECH: Walkers may not technically be scouts and maybe they should be but they ARE the first Droidish unit in the game and seem to be reasonable to have set a bit lower on the sm overall offset so quality was reduced by one.
• Urban Horseman - Curraissier: Hydro clarified the intention is correct here.
• NLOS Cannon - Levitation Artillery: Levitation Artillery appears way too underpowered so str was adjusted to get it more in line with the upgrade chain - to 170.
• UNITCLASS_DESTROYER: is one Combat Quality rank too low. Fixed. (Some of these were actually just typos IN the xml and showed to be differing from what they were planned to be on the planning doc.)

Could you clarify what's required to get the +1 in CQ promotion? I've don't think I've ever seen one available despite levelling quite a bit with some units.

Also, I feel the new 4 str Ambusher is a bit too powerful. You get it about as early as obsidian fighters, but with a much easier prerequisite (just capture two snakes), invisibility and bonus gold/science whenever you kill anything. Not counting the additional +25% bonus against everything from the poison crafter's hut that is mandatory to get the unit anyway... I'm early-to-mid Ancient era and don't bother to build any other fighting unit (save some archers for city defense) since I got them. With 3 str it'd be already a very good unit...

Rwn said:

Could you clarify what's required to get the +1 in CQ promotion? I've don't think I've ever seen one available despite levelling quite a bit with some units.

Also, I feel the new 4 str Ambusher is a bit too powerful. You get it about as early as obsidian fighters, but with a much easier prerequisite (just capture two snakes), invisibility and bonus gold/science whenever you kill anything. Not counting the additional +25% bonus against everything from the poison crafter's hut that is mandatory to get the unit anyway... I'm early-to-mid Ancient era and don't bother to build any other fighting unit (save some archers for city defense) since I got them. With 3 str it'd be already a very good unit...

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I'd be happy to drop it back down BUT... it can't merge or split right? So it's only that good against unmerged units really if I'm not mistaken. So that was part of the thinking there... And doesn't it cost more to maintain than those basic units?

As for the CQ promos... it depends on your unit's level and current CQ.
They are:
So if your unit's combat quality is Exceptional, then you'll need to get up to level 11 to open up the upgrade to Elite. If you take the CQ promo that gets you from Exceptional to Elite, your unit's XP will drop to 0 and you'll be earning less XP with each combat. But if you can earn your way ALL the way back up to Level 15 you can then take Legendary Prowess and go up to Epic Combat Quality. You haven't lost any levels to drop to 0 xp but it will take the same amount of xp to go from lvl 0 to lvl 15 from 0 xp as it would if you're unit was brand new without any xp awards (and since you're earning less and probably finding the battles less challenging thus less overall xp earning in the first place it's going to be a very long road before you can get another +50% strength & hp!)

This is part of why it can be beneficial to be producing military units with decent base strength but poor combat quality. A promo to upgrade the combat quality will be much more quickly in reach and then there could be the possibility that another one may eventually be earned. Each meaning a +50% strength and hp, that means that the unit has a lot of potential simply due to being combat quality weak. The downside of high CQ is really that there's so much more to learn for the unit to drastically improve.

Thunderbrd said:

I'd be happy to drop it back down BUT... it can't merge or split right? So it's only that good against unmerged units really if I'm not mistaken. So that was part of the thinking there... And doesn't it cost more to maintain than those basic units?

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Yes; I considered this, but I don't really encounter many merged units except when the AI sends a big stack to invade. This means that the ambushers (which have 2 movement also, forgot to mention that...) dispatch nearly anything that wanders - hunters, scouts, even small stacks protected by atlatlists... The only units that I have to let wander are the occasional Great Hunters - and even then, I sometimes get them when they are on open terrain. This makes things a bit too easy (or hard for the one suffering it...).

As for the CQ promos... it depends on your unit's level and current CQ.

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Strange, I think I have reached levels 8+, but I can't recall with which units. Well, I'll keep that in mind and report it if I see I meet the level prerequisite and don't get the promo. Thanks for the table!

Rwn said:

Yes; I considered this, but I don't really encounter many merged units except when the AI sends a big stack to invade. This means that the ambushers (which have 2 movement also, forgot to mention that...) dispatch nearly anything that wanders - hunters, scouts, even small stacks protected by atlatlists... The only units that I have to let wander are the occasional Great Hunters - and even then, I sometimes get them when they are on open terrain. This makes things a bit too easy (or hard for the one suffering it...).

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hmm... Ok, I'd say I'm convinced to drop him down a bit then.

Anyone else have any differences of opinion? I'm wondering how the 4 str Ambusher is playing out in the core game... My best guess it would probably be much the same except even more weighted towards the Ambusher. And yeah, it IS a bit early for 4. But at least having the rogue upgrade to this unit or vice versa is a lateral promotion either way they go in the main game if the Ambusher is a STR 3. But in Size Matters if the Ambusher upgrades to a Rogue then it's a downgrade combatitively.