RBC3a - Ancient Mediterranean Mayhem

Sullla

Patrician Roman Dictator
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
2,835
Location
Baltimore MD
This game is one of four running on the Rise of Rome Conquest, seeking to experience each of the four playable civs and to compare their different situations.

Scenario: Rise of Rome
Civ: Carthago
Difficulty: Deity
Goal: Domination Victory before time limit is reached

Roster
Sullla
ToddMarshall
Greebley
Kylearan
Nad

All exploits listed at RBCiv are off-limits. 10 turns per player at all times. 24/48 rule is in effect for "got it" message/playing turns, once everyone gets a copy of the expansion. Until then, we will be more flexible.

Kylearan and Nad have been shifted to the end of the roster while awaiting the arrival of Conquests in Europe. I will be playing the first 10 turns myself, mostly because I beta-tested this scenario back in July and have some familiarity with it. The opening turns are the most critical, so stay on your toes with the first go-around in the roster! :)

 
I see that I am 2nd. I will not be arround to "get it" till Sunday night. Will be able to play sunday night or monday.
 
I thought I would check in. I do have the game already. I played a game yesterday (I had to try random map size) and I must say the increased cost of upgrading was a bit of a shock. I think I like the change though.

I am thinking we might as well take the first round a little slow if the European release isn't until Friday. It would give us time to discuss strategy.

I glanced briefly at the start and I see what you mean about the first turns being important. We are at war with Rome and its improved legions (4-3-1) while we have the defensive Numidean which we can't even build yet as we need Ivory, and we are weak compared to them. Oy :eek:

Reading the History section, we lose all our islands in this war (if I read the section correctly), lose spain about the time of the second and get slaughtered in the third. Time to rewrite history :hammer:

I am guessing we play this vaguely similar an always war game? Defensive at first, trying to get good kill ratios while gaining in power until we can finally turn the tables. Though I am assuming we can actually make peace? I would be hard to have 3 wars if we can't.

Sullla,
Did you pick normal agression? I think that was the one option I saw when I started that could be varied other than difficulty.
 
I guess you are all already doing this, but if not I'd recomment reading the other RBC3 threads - they've already made some very interesting discoveries, tiny little details which might otherwise easily get missed. Roads providing 4 movement, hoplites being 3.3.1 etc...

It's a good question if it's possible for us to make peace with Rome. Can we? I don't know how good our starting position is to attack Rome now (how many boats do we have? Do they have? What's our strongest attack unit?). For example, we could make peace with Rome for a short time after we have taken Messana (*if* we will be able to do this, that is), and either roll over Egypt afterwards (although this looks like a long way...) or attack Rome again when we have this heavy cavalry thingie. Although from the report on Sulla's page, it looks like time is against us - Rome seems to have the strongest units in the game in the long run, although their movement of one should be a severe disadvantage.

I think some settling will be in order, too. By the way, what do the new small sword icons near cities mean? That the city has a barracks?

Of course, I cannot give any meaningful proposals because I don't have the game yet, so you can safely ignore me until I have. ;)

It will be interesting to see how the AI will manage the new units, for example how many Legionarys will be misused as pseudo-workers... :)

-Kylearan
 
Just checking in...looks great, can't wait to get stuck in!!
 
Thanks Greebley! Er, impressive forces we have there. *cough* Changes my comment about "try to capture Messina" into "try to hold Syracuse and Marsala", especially since in one of the other thread it has been said that we can't make peace with Rome. :eek:

Looking forward to Sulla's first turns...

-Kylearan
 
I decided to peruse the tech tree for this scenario.

Tactics give us a 4-2-2 war elephants with an extra hp and is my guess for the tech to go for first.

I was glad to see we can research astronomy any time we want. Looks like we could already use it.

Another difference - Galleys can hold 4 units.

Legions have an extra hit point too and get better with higher techs (5-4-1 then 6-5-1 if I remember correctly)
 
Well, I'm finally back but I'm totally drained. I haven't really looked at this one and probably won't till my turn. I spent over 2 hours reading every single unit, tech, etc. in the mesopotamia scenareo before I started my turn and thats the way I'll approach it here along with reading every post from the other games. That being said, keep pointing out every lil nugget of info you think would be helpful. I won't be able to play this one till tuesday night anyhow.
 
Reading the Numideon Merc in the Civopedia, it appears that this unit is not a UU for us and won't start a golden age?

It implies any civ can build it that has ivory and does not mention a golden age. Check it out and see if you agree.

If this is true it will make the beginning harder because I think Rome's legions do have GA potential so they get theirs right away. The net result could be good for us though as we get our GA when we are bigger.
 
*Yawn* Good morning.

You are correct in your thinking that the NM is not a UU for us. Our UU is a 4-2-2 50 shield Jumbo available at Tactics.

Yes, Rome's basic Legions can set off a GA. The 2 upgrades to the Legion can't, although this is likely to a non issue as they'll probably get it almost immediately.
 
I have been away for much of this weekend and thus did not have time to start this game off. Planning to play it tonight though. I hope this has given our European players enough time so that when we get around to them in the rotation, they will have copies on hand to play. Don't think I'd forgotten about this game or anything... :)
 
(0) 350BC OK, this is it. Finally time to roll with Carthage against Rome in this scenario. Now that I'm starting the game, I can reveal some of the things I didn't want to talk about in the setup phase. For those playing on my team, you're in for a real struggle. Carthage is by far the most difficult civ to play, locked permanently in war with the extremely dangerous Rome. It's hard for Rome to invade Carthage, true - but it's even harder for Carthage to invade Rome. The legions have the highest defense of any unit in the game, and it only gets worse as the scenario progresses. Persia comes in second, stuck in war with Macedon and its infernal hoplites (much harder to fight a 3/3 unit than a 4/2 one). My only goal on these first turns are to defend what we have and - IF we are lucky - take Messana so that have uncontested control of Sicily. We won't even be in a position to think about invading Italy for a very long time.

First priority is to look at our armed forces. We have three settlers and nine workers (that's pretty good), but only 4 archers, 3 spears, 1 sword, and 13 Numidians to work with. With all of Rome's freebie Deity legions, this might get ugly. We're going to HAVE to concentrate on dominating the seas; that is our one big advantage in this scenario. Research path is obvious: we must beeline to Tactics as soon as possible to get our UU War Elephants; until then, any offensive is probably out of the question. Unortunately, it's still 40 turns at best rate, so we're probably better off waiting to buy the tech...

Going through cities... Carthage is considered for a wonder, but it is the closest city to the front in Sicily. If we're going to defend our territory there, we need Carthago producing a steady stream of units. It is configured for max growth and set to swords for now until we research Tactics. Marsala and Syracuse, our cities on Sicily, start on cheap Militaristic walls - they might need them. Other cities get swapped to a mix of workers/settlers (in Spain) and military units in the cities close to us. Our problem as Carthage is that we have a good deal of commerce, but not many shields.

Checking diplomacy... we have just about nothing to trade. But Alex will ally with us against Rome for free?! OK! Better than OK, that's great news! :D

Now moving units... I send one archer in Spain up north to find the Celts and eventually the Goths. Since I have spoiler knowledge of this map, I intend to make use of it. We need ivory to build Numidians; ivory is a strategic resource, NOT a luxury on this map. I thus send one of starting settlers into the desert in a very odd location to get us ivory ASAP. After almost an hour on the first turn, time to end it and see what happens...

(1) 345BC Rome's only move for this turn is to move an archer next to Marsala on Sicily. With a Numidian defending, I'm not worried. I found the city of Lilibeo in Spain, which puts an extra spices at our disposal. I then send that extra spice to Persia for dyes and some money, improving relations with Xerxes and getting us a much-needed second luxury. Entertainment rate scaled back to 10%. We start with more galleys than Rome, so I take a chance and attack their exposed galley (got to control the seas right away). We luck out and win 3-0, with our galley promoting to veteran. Nice. :D Two of our galleys are now on patrol of the Messana straits, seeking to interdict any ships bound for Sicily. Barbs have showed up in Spain, but we have an archer exploring there who should be able to take out their camp and grab us 25g more.

Everything is tentatively looking good. If we are lucky, Rome will become preoccupied with Macedon and not focus on launching a naval invasion of our (largely undefended) homeland in North Africa. Silicy, on the other hand, is now an armed camp with 5 of our starting 11 Numidians defending our two cities there.

(2) 340BC As expected, the Roman archer attacks Marsala and loses 3-1, promoting our defender to vet status. An archer in Spain survives a barb attack without taking any damage. The most troubling sign is a Roman galley heading for Aleria (Corsica). We have only one spear there for defense, so I whip city walls this turn. We can only wait for the unit(s) to land and hope for the best. Another Roman galley heads for Sicily; we have a vet galley next to it, so I cross my fingers and attack. The Seafaring Carthaginians come through again, and we sink the ship 3-1. Woo yeah! Can't hurt us if you can't reach us! :D Also of note is the fact that the Roman city on Sicily, Messana, has been whipped down to size one. Can only be a good sign!

(3) 335BC Hmmm. The expected attack on Corsica does not come. The Roman galley we could see last turn headed north, possibly with a settler on board (?) Another galley appeared and is heading west. I would shadow them if I had any ships in the area, but I don't. What are they up to? Our archer goes down to 1hp but disperses a barb camp as planned. Nora founded in Spain to grab another wine resource, though it will need a worker on hand in order to hook it up. And we meet the Celts this turn too! Masonry and Iron Working gets their world map and all their gold. I found an embassy in Alesia and then GIVE them Alphabet and Writing so that we can get them to declare on Rome... wha? The game won't let me ally with them against Rome. Umm... what's going on here? Well, at least I can use the new map knowledge and contact to clean out a lot of money from the other civs, and buy a worker from Persia. We've now got our quota of workers from Persia, folks.

(4) 330BC Kind of a quiet turn, not too much going on. NOW this turn we can ally with Celts against Rome; they are willing to do it for peanuts (world map + 41g) so we happily sign them in against Ceasar. All of Rome's neighbors are now at war with them, so that should help take the heat off us. :goodjob: I should also mention that Persia now has Mathematics. We can buy it for our treasury - and we want the tech so we can build catapults - but I'd rather wait for Macedon to buy in and lower the price, which they almost assuredly will. Rome starts the game with Math.

(5) 325BC Rome signs Egypt into war against the Celts; I think this is the very definition of a "phony war". Now that we have finally produced some swords, it's time to start heading for the conquest of Sicily. Our starting army is loaded with three swords, which will head for Messana next turn. We now have a 3/2/2 unit with 11hp. :mwaha: And with our civ being Militaristic, there's a good chance we'll pop more leaders in the course of this game. (First leader goes to rush a Forbidden Palace in Spain though - once we discover Republic and enable the FP, that is).

Yikes! Our exploring archer spots a Roman legion, citizen (settler), and pike heading down the road. We're going to have to start sending reinforcements to Spain; that's where the real battle will be fought next. I begin to rethink my strategic plan... Utica founded in the desert, gaining us ivory. We can now build Numidians instead of spears - a big upgrade for only 10 extra shields.

(6) 320BC Our archer in Spain tried to hide on a mountain at the end of last turn, but the Roman legion chased him down and won without taking any damage. Our limited units in Spain are hastily re-shuffled to prepare for the likely coming onslaught. In more positive news, our army goes after Messana. In a freak swing of luck, it wins the first battle 5-0 (3 attack against 3 defense - but the Roman unit fortified and in a town on a hill for a real defense of 5.25). The second battle is more like what we'd expect; the army loses 7hp but wins and has 4hp remaining.

(7) 315BC Not too much going on. Healing up the army and getting more swords onto Sicily. Now that the legions have been killed, only spears remain for defense - a much easier task. Any reinforcements will be interdicted by our ships, so Sicily will soon fall.

(8) 310BC The attack on Messana goes forward. Our army inexplicably loses 7 straight rounds of combat, but then retreats and thus avoids death. Knowing that the RNG has now used up all its "bad seeds", I press the attack with our swords. The first wins with 1hp remaining. The second loses but reduces the spear to a single hp. Umm... and there are still more spears in there. Err, yeah, Rome must have a lot of free bonus units. I break off the attack again and wait for the army to re-heal. Geez, Rome starts with 1 legion, 1 archer, and 1 spear in Messana for the player. I've killed two legions, an archer, and two spears in that city already, and they never landed any reinforcements. At least two more spears there still to go... I also decide to start a min science run on Monotheism this turn with a scientist. The tech is utterly worthless, so hopefully the AI will ignore it and we can get something for it in 40 turns.

(9) 305BC Kind of a quiet turn. Rome has founded a city in Celtic territory, otherwise everything is pretty uneventuful. Still waiting for someone else to research Mathematics or another tech for a twofer.

(10) 300BC BAD news! Rome signs Persia to an alliance against us! :eek: This puts our cities in no danger, but it does snap a luxury coming to us. We'll want to make peace as soon as we can just to be safe. And it might be a good idea to sign Persia in against Rome when we get a chance. Fortunately, a city completes a worker and I scroll-ahead to prevent any cities going into disorder. Luxuries raised to 10% to compensate for lack of Persian dyes.

Did I say armies have gotten stronger? In one turn, ours goes from 1hp to 11hp. :D Our army kills the first spear, losing 3hp, then with 8hp left goes after the second one. The army loses 5 more hp, but wins and promotes to take the city. Messana and Sicily are ours!



We can trade luxuries with the Celts, but I don't recommend it since the trade route with them is extremely insecure. Our reputation is worth more than that. Also of interest in terms of trading, we'll have an extra iron to send around in a few more turns for extra income. Everything looking pretty solid at this point, although actually invading and conquering Rome will be a major chore.

Some notes for the next player. Attacking Italy across the straits is probably suicide at this point; don't even think about it until we get Jumbos. The next few turns should probably be spent securing our holdings in Spain and expanding there if possible. Where to send our extra swords and sword army next is up to you; I'd leave a decent amount of swords and Numidians on Sicily to be safe, but that will still leave some extras for use elsewhere. The city of Confinium in northern Spain wouldn't be a bad target to take out next. We are still waiting on the AI to research Tactics for us; be patient and wait, because they most certainly will soon enough. We want to build horses and not swords at this point because horses upgrade to War Elephants.

One last note: the horseman being produced in Carthago Novo is intended to be used to scout out the Goths and Scythians. Sign a ROP with the Celts, take the horseman through their territory, and keep heading east. You'll find both of them in time. Keep Rome locked into war with its neighbors and the heat of those legions off of us. Above all, good luck! :goojob:

RBC3a - 300BC
 
Here's the current map. Make sure to keep producing settlers to fill in some of this empty land near Carthage; I didn't have time on my turn, but we can't ignore doing that if we want a truly productive core. Keep settling in Spain too - victory in this game is based on score, which is based on territory and population. We need more land and people if we're going to get domination! :)



Sullla
ToddMarshall <<< UP NOW
Greebley <<< on deck
Kylearan
Nad
 
I got it. 13 hour day at work today so I'm too tired to play this tonite. Should get to it tomorrow or wed.

Edit: btw, the persians would have given us half their gold and a lux for alliance vs rome on turn 1 just like Macedon (who would have given us all their gold and a lux for it). Egypt also would have given us everything they had for it. Neither of those 2 would have been anything but phony wars for rome, but it would have kept them from allying vs us. Also, Macedon can't buy into math.... they are at war with the persians and rome so they have no one to buy it off of :lol:
 
Originally posted by ToddMarshall
Edit: btw, the persians would have given us half their gold and a lux for alliance vs rome on turn 1 just like Macedon (who would have given us all their gold and a lux for it). Egypt also would have given us everything they had for it. Neither of those 2 would have been anything but phony wars for rome, but it would have kept them from allying vs us. Also, Macedon can't buy into math.... they are at war with the persians and rome so they have no one to buy it off of :lol:

This almost certainly sounds like a bug to me. Civs shouldn't be lining up to attack your greatest rival for no cost whatsoever. Here's something which likely needs to be addressed in a patch.
 
I kinda wondered about that myself. One intersiting fact is that Persia would go from acceptable to insulted for that alliace on a one gold break (somewhere arround 45g, don't remember exactly).

I found a bug in the mesopotamia scenareo last night too, but I lost the screenshot. One of the civs refered to itself as civname5 when offering an alliance and now I can't remember which civ it was :(.
 
Well I have good news and bad news. The good news is that my gf decided to surprise me by flying in from Atlanta for the weekend (just found out this afternoon). She arrives tomorrow. The bad news is that the place is a mess and it can't be that way when she gets here so I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for a swap or a skip :(. I could play friday night but not before. I appologize to all concerned for the delay.
 
I try to adhere to the 24/48 hour rule as much as possible. Since ToddMarshall has told us that he cannot play his turn within 48 hours, we'll skip him for now and go to Greebley. After Greebley's turn, it will go back to ToddMarshall while our European players are still waiting for copies.

Greebley, you are on the clock. :)
 
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