I tend to neglect my culture generation in the mid-game when I'm not going for culture victory, which can sometimes come back to bite me in the late game with tourism influence. Just wondering what some good "cost efficient" culture generation strategies are. Should I be allying cultural city-states rather than the mercantile ones I tend to focus on for happiness? Are culture buildings (amphitheater, opera house, etc.) even worth it? More generally, how do culture specialists fit into a science/diplo game?
Efficient Culture Generation
- Thread starter Axirr
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59saintdane
Warlord
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Amphitheaters are one of my lowest priority buildings in BNW, if not going for CV I only build them when I have no other buildings to build. Since they got nerfed to 1 culture I find them to be pretty negligible.
I generally staff the guilds right after the scientists. If I have a high enough pop, am running all scientists, and am running out of good tiles, I'll start working on culture specialists. Remember, they generate +2 science with Secularism, and they can also generate Writers and Artists--the former pushes you through key policies and tenets faster, the latter gives you a Golden age for production, culture and gold.
So generally, I'll be running on culture from monuments, guilds, and maybe some Cultural CS. That usually seems to be enough to get the important policies.
In fact, pre-Renaissance you may want to actually slow your policy acquisition (unless you play with policy saving on) so that you can open Rationalism as soon as you're done Tradition.
I generally staff the guilds right after the scientists. If I have a high enough pop, am running all scientists, and am running out of good tiles, I'll start working on culture specialists. Remember, they generate +2 science with Secularism, and they can also generate Writers and Artists--the former pushes you through key policies and tenets faster, the latter gives you a Golden age for production, culture and gold.
So generally, I'll be running on culture from monuments, guilds, and maybe some Cultural CS. That usually seems to be enough to get the important policies.
In fact, pre-Renaissance you may want to actually slow your policy acquisition (unless you play with policy saving on) so that you can open Rationalism as soon as you're done Tradition.
Monuments are the most efficient culture generators even if you didn't pick Tradition (which makes them free)
The next most efficient is Hermitage. This requires 100% of your cites to have Opera Houses (which indirectly means that 100% of your cities needs Amphitheaters)
Amphitheaters themselves though are very inefficient unless there is a work inside them, so you time those to complete right before you need the spot early. Note that Oxford has 2 Writing spots with a theming bonus and in addition in early game your culture output is really bad so it's best to have your first 2 GW produce a Great Work of Writing so you can trade them to get that theming bonus for ideological happiness reasons. (It's much easier for you to reach exotic over an AI (you only need 1/10th of their culture) to counter them becoming exotic over you than to prevent them from becoming exotic over you.
Later on when Opera House tech are around the corner, then you complete them just to unblock Opera Houses so you can in turn unblock Hermitage.
The third most efficient is running the guilds (from their specialists). If you want to delay a given specialty type (its popular to delay Musicians), just don't build the guild until you're ready to run it.
In BNW, you can find one or two filler polices while waiting for Rationalism that will help your victory. Unless going for cultural victory though, I'd recommend avoiding being forced into picking a 3rd filler policy before being allowed into Rationalism.
The next most efficient is Hermitage. This requires 100% of your cites to have Opera Houses (which indirectly means that 100% of your cities needs Amphitheaters)
Amphitheaters themselves though are very inefficient unless there is a work inside them, so you time those to complete right before you need the spot early. Note that Oxford has 2 Writing spots with a theming bonus and in addition in early game your culture output is really bad so it's best to have your first 2 GW produce a Great Work of Writing so you can trade them to get that theming bonus for ideological happiness reasons. (It's much easier for you to reach exotic over an AI (you only need 1/10th of their culture) to counter them becoming exotic over you than to prevent them from becoming exotic over you.
Later on when Opera House tech are around the corner, then you complete them just to unblock Opera Houses so you can in turn unblock Hermitage.
The third most efficient is running the guilds (from their specialists). If you want to delay a given specialty type (its popular to delay Musicians), just don't build the guild until you're ready to run it.
In BNW, you can find one or two filler polices while waiting for Rationalism that will help your victory. Unless going for cultural victory though, I'd recommend avoiding being forced into picking a 3rd filler policy before being allowed into Rationalism.
59saintdane
Warlord
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Great works are less efficient (culture-wise) than saving for a culture bulb later on. Suppose you were planning on picking Order? In that case, since most AIs pick Order, you probably wouldn't have a problem with their tourism. And if going for DV, you might be able to pass your ideology as the World Ideology, largely negating enemy ideological pressure.
So that leaves Freedom SV or Autocracy DomV (although Futurism in this case could get you to exotic) as the non-CV situations in which tourism would be necessary.
So that leaves Freedom SV or Autocracy DomV (although Futurism in this case could get you to exotic) as the non-CV situations in which tourism would be necessary.
There is a huge misconception that generating culture is only and/or significantly more important for CV than other VCs. Social Policies are the life's blood of your empire. Culture CS and Guild Specialists are very important for filling things out as quickly as possible. Founding a religion with Mosque or Pagoda is very helpful. World's Fair, Sistine, and Golden Age spam all contribute. CV is only different than other VCs in that you will turn some of your writers and artists into works instead of bulbing.
Generally speaking there is a brief period between turns 80-130 when you should slow down a little bit to wait for Renaissance (access to Rationalism), but other than that you should heavily prioritize culture output regardless of your intended VC.
Generally speaking there is a brief period between turns 80-130 when you should slow down a little bit to wait for Renaissance (access to Rationalism), but other than that you should heavily prioritize culture output regardless of your intended VC.
budweiser
King of the Beers
If not going for CV, do this:
Great Writer, treastise
Great Artist , GA
Great Musician, settle.
That should help your culture.
Great Writer, treastise
Great Artist , GA
Great Musician, settle.
That should help your culture.
59saintdane
Warlord
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I usually save for as long as I can, unless there's a very important policy I want to get to earlier.
InaneObserver
Warlord
Great people count as units, right? So saving a great person, whether it's a Great Writer or Scientist, has a hidden cost in the form of increased unit maintenance. It may be that even if the culture gained is lower when bulbing early, snowball effects and savings etc make it worth it, especially if there is an important policy waiting.
When not going for CV, do folks open Aesthetics and then take the SP to get the half price cultural buildings? For me, this delays finishing out Rationalism by at least one SP, but it seems well worth the detour. As joncnunn wrote, Hermitage is a great NW, even with the steep prerequisites.
Yes, like GS, bulbing GW is based on the last eight turns of culture output. So bulb them when a golden age is ending or eight turns after winning the World Fair. If you do that, then I don't think there would be good justification for keeping them longer. As with most aspects of the game, bulbs are relative to era, and sooner is generally better than later. But I think GM might be an exception? Is it better to burn GM eight turns after winning International Games, or should they always be saved for the end?
Yes, like GS, bulbing GW is based on the last eight turns of culture output. So bulb them when a golden age is ending or eight turns after winning the World Fair. If you do that, then I don't think there would be good justification for keeping them longer. As with most aspects of the game, bulbs are relative to era, and sooner is generally better than later. But I think GM might be an exception? Is it better to burn GM eight turns after winning International Games, or should they always be saved for the end?
Correct. GW bulbs are based on your last 8 turns of culture at the time you bulb the GW. Max benefit is if you bulb 8 turns into a Golden Age with the World's fair bonus.
Even when not pursuing CV, I want my first two GW for Oxford and first three GA for Hermitage. That, and some luck trading, is what you need for theming bonuses, and theming bonuses provides for strong culture. GW and GA after that get bulbed as golden ages wind down. I also turn my first two GM into great works as I have good success getting Sydney (even when not trying for CV).
If you aren't going for CV, you should really save/bulb the Artists at the very least. Theming Bonuses are nice but it can't compete with turbocharging your whole empire. Brazil CV should save/bulb Artists as well.
^^ Soffacet, you might well be correct about the GA. Anyone run the numbers? Is 6 cpt (plus bonuses) worth the opportunity cost of passing on three Golden Ages? Does working towards a CV change that?
budweiser
King of the Beers
The opportunity cost of planting your first few Writers vs 'bulbing' them could be, for example Secularism when you first open Renaissance vs 4 pts in tourism.
Drama & Poetry is a treasure trove of Culture from the tech tree, likewise Representation from the policy tree. There is TONS of culture in the Parthenon. 1 or 2 cities worth. Advantage: Greece.
Drama & Poetry is a treasure trove of Culture from the tech tree, likewise Representation from the policy tree. There is TONS of culture in the Parthenon. 1 or 2 cities worth. Advantage: Greece.
Math depends heavily on:
1. Did you get Chicken Itza or not before the Great Artist induced GAs?
2. Did you adopt Freedom and get the level 2 tenet before the Great Artist induced GAs?
I also note though that as Brazil, you can overshoot. (At mid difficulty levels it's sometimes possible to win culturally as Brazil before you even open an ideology)
Just to be clear, I am arguing for two and only two GW.
You are getting 2 cpt at the start and then 4 cpt once you complete Oxford. Plus multipliers and then tourism later. Using those two GW for Great Works certainly pays out for the long game, but maybe its even strong enough to get let you open Rationalism sooner than bulbing!
No. In my case, that I almost never get that NW.
No. I think I am getting at least a couple GA before Ideologies open for any civ. If I am late, that is three SP. Plus I might not pick Freedom.
Hermitage and its associated theming bonus is something anyone can do every game. So I think it comes down to how aggressive and good is your play. As one gets faster, always bulbing GA for Golden Ages shaves even more turns. I play pretty casually, and my Immortal games run 400+ turns (Standard pace), so planting the first three GA for GW and Hermitage theming bonus makes sense. Do I have that about right?
Most efficient culture imo is Monuments and to ally City states. As long as you can do the quests and they offer something else (happiness resource, protection) they're definitely very cost effective. Especially if you're beelining through eras you get better bonuses from city states. Playing Siam/Greece also obviously helps this.
One strategy I sometimes use is to actually stall my culture and try to sync it up so that my first policy after tradition is completed the same turn I open up rationalism (or close as long as you get your renaissance tech first). Ally some city states right at the renaissance era with the big era bonus and BOOM, you get some early rationalism policies.
One strategy I sometimes use is to actually stall my culture and try to sync it up so that my first policy after tradition is completed the same turn I open up rationalism (or close as long as you get your renaissance tech first). Ally some city states right at the renaissance era with the big era bonus and BOOM, you get some early rationalism policies.
59saintdane
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2014
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I actually always play with policy saving on because I don't like the idea that I'm actually punished for having a high cpt (by having to take additional filler policies). That way I don't end up having to stall my early game culture.
