DEITY CHALLENGE - aiming for sub 200T victory

What about social policies? Or is it self explanatory that you take Order and get that factory policy for science bonus whatever it was called The bad thing is that AI is rarely taking Order in my games and I always suffer severe happiness cuts because of that and I can barely manage it. There are some nice policies like 25% GP generation and cheaper buildings but I am almost always forced to take happiness policies. The only exception is Poland because then I can take them all

About Indonesia:
I would not choose them because your cities might request their unique resources for WLTKD and it might be more difficult to get them.

dragonxxx said:

avoid religious fanatics like Ethiopia. better put Venice in

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Although it's nice that they initially have only one city alowing you or AI to expand but later on they take like 2-3 CS who could have been your allies

sun8119 said:

What about social policies? Or is it self explanatory that you take Order and get that factory policy for science bonus whatever it was called The bad thing is that AI is rarely taking Order in my games and I always suffer severe happiness cuts because of that and I can barely manage it. There are some nice policies like 25% GP generation and cheaper buildings but I am almost always forced to take happiness policies. The only exception is Poland because then I can take them all

About Indonesia:
I would not choose them because your cities might request their unique resources for WLTKD and it might be more difficult to get them.



Although it's nice that they initially have only one city alowing you or AI to expand but later on they take like 2-3 CS who could have been your allies

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Tradition is a given. Maybe if you have great culture game you can go for Trad/Lib mix (requiring 3 extra policies pre-renaissance), definitely the way to go if you chose Poland.

After that obviously Rationalism.

For a sub 200 I'm fairly sure Order is the best option. I've had great successes in the current Korea GotM testing out freedom for a 220T victory (second playthrough) but it required heavy amount of gold which I'm not sure would be doable for sub 200. If you're not in it for such low times both ideologies are good in my opinion.
Order is usually a fairly popular AI ideology and the AI should be miles behind you. With the extra culture from cultural CS and WF I am usually never influenced by more than the first happiness hit around 8-10 unhappiness.

sun8119 said:

About Indonesia:
I would not choose them because your cities might request their unique resources for WLTKD and it might be more difficult to get them.

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Good tip, although on pangea it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned great library. I know it's extremely unlikely to get but all my point is that in a tech game it makes a huge difference. Also since people mentioned choosing which AI you play against I say any that have flavor against religion and wonder spamming. I remember I set up a standard sized map with the 7 other civs that were apparently least likely to go for wonders and got great library on the first shot. This was a long time ago and maybe I just got very lucky but getting great library (especially if your Babylon or Poland) means you'll just catapult yourself very early and can probably easily catch up to the AI by renaissance era easily perhaps earlier. Once your ahead in tech as long as you don't totally blow it by ignoring army you're in control of the game and it's very easy to get a wonder if you are the only who has the tech for it.

When people get around to showing some of their games (if anybody does) I feel it should be mentioned if great library was used (in my opinion when used right its the #1 wonder to get). If you know you actually succeed in getting it.

Also I's like to quote a post from Tommynt:
"The überbest superspeed thing was btw:
Monument, granny, worker, gl, nc --> 3x settler pyras
but needs quite some good land with big production to be able to build gl and nc superfast and not delay settling next cities too much (free settler comes about when gl finishes) so build nc while settler wanders to some far spot."

jko1 said:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned great library. I know it's extremely unlikely to get but all my point is that in a tech game it makes a huge difference. Also since people mentioned choosing which AI you play against I say any that have flavor against religion and wonder spamming. I remember I set up a standard sized map with the 7 other civs that were apparently least likely to go for wonders and got great library on the first shot. This was a long time ago and maybe I just got very lucky but getting great library (especially if your Babylon or Poland) means you'll just catapult yourself very early and can probably easily catch up to the AI by renaissance era easily perhaps earlier. Once your ahead in tech as long as you don't totally blow it by ignoring army you're in control of the game and it's very easy to get a wonder if you are the only who has the tech for it.

When people get around to showing some of their games (if anybody does) I feel it should be mentioned if great library was used (in my opinion when used right its the #1 wonder to get). If you know you actually succeed in getting it.

Also I's like to quote a post from Tommynt:
"The überbest superspeed thing was btw:
Monument, granny, worker, gl, nc --> 3x settler pyras
but needs quite some good land with big production to be able to build gl and nc superfast and not delay settling next cities too much (free settler comes about when gl finishes) so build nc while settler wanders to some far spot."

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Every time I've done the GL thing, I'm only slightly ahead at ~100, but slowly fall behind as time goes. While it gives an early catapult on science, it hurts your growth a lot, and hurts your ability to settle in good locations. I've not seen good returns on getting the great library, and it can be disastrous if you don't get it made in time. I really am not a fan.

The way to do it:

Spain
Great Plains

get some natty wonders and spawn on left side of map, rest should be easy

If you want full Rationalism and full Ideology too it seems like it will be hard to get all of the policies sub 200. Poland may be a strong choice.

edit: Spain should be pretty amazing too with a great start.. Free religion, great expos very fast.

It is year 2014 and people still advocate building the Great Library, the biggest noob trap of this game?
Do you also start building a Settler on turn 0? Or rush a neighbour with 4 warriors?

Get on with the time folks. Expanding to 4 cities before National College gives the most benefit in the long run. Getting a free tech that costs less than 200 is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Even France doesn't benefit much from GL, since an extra theming bonus is easily overshadowed by much higher generated by Chateaus.

Paszczak said:

It is year 2014 and people still advocate building the Great Library, the biggest noob trap of this game?
Do you also start building a Settler on turn 0? Or rush a neighbour with 4 warriors?

Get on with the time folks. Expanding to 4 cities before National College gives the most benefit in the long run. Getting a free tech that costs less than 200 is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Even France doesn't benefit much from GL, since an extra theming bonus is easily overshadowed by much higher generated by Chateaus.

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The GL is not all that bad; you can get a very fast NC and education with it. It's just near impossible to build at Deity since AI have writing so fast and a large production bonus.

Though I'd still say it's the best for culture, simply because writing slots are pretty restricted otherwise.

Paszczak said:

It is year 2014 and people still advocate building the Great Library, the biggest noob trap of this game?
Do you also start building a Settler on turn 0? Or rush a neighbour with 4 warriors?

Get on with the time folks. Expanding to 4 cities before National College gives the most benefit in the long run. Getting a free tech that costs less than 200 is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Even France doesn't benefit much from GL, since an extra theming bonus is easily overshadowed by much higher generated by Chateaus.

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I don't understand why ppl keep talking about GL in here, when it's impossible to get it on deity anyway.

Still, GL cost effectively 110 hammers, that's not much more than a caravan. So if you are failing behind because of building it, its your own fault and has nothing to do with Gl.

if you want to reroll for the most perfect start, you can keep trying for a t11 free Writing from a ruin to start gl as early as possible. then get a a couple free pop ruins and chop forests and you can get it ~t40 or so. you just have to hope it isnt in a game when it goes before then. it should only take maybe 100 tries to find that perfect confluence of terrain and ruins.

if you do that with Babylon you'll also get GS at t11 but it will probably be pillaged a few times since you only have a warrior to protect it, and hes probably out scouting still. Or you could try with Pocatello to pick the ruins results but i dont think you can choose the tech you get. also, getting the GL is certainly a diplo hit against 2 or 3 opponents at least, and is a potential stepping stone to an earlier DoW. even at perfect circumstances it isnt worth it for much of the opportunity costs discussed (lost settling opportunities, diplo hits, pop growth, etc).

you could always go for el dorado with Spain and if you hand pick your opponents you could get most of whatever you want. i think spain has the best chance for a legit sub200 even if you dont go for el dorado. you just have to abuse that UA.

Meh, the point about GL is taken. It might shave a few turns off if played perfectly, but that's really the problem. It's a huge gamble and who wants to ruin their perfect science start on a gamble. (remember HOF rules, no re-rolls) It also would not really be repeatable. Here is the problem with GL:

IF you could get GL on Deity, which I seriously doubt without a perfect double-tech ruin and super-early worker (usually gone around t25-t35 my games), then yes, it would give you an early NC. But having the tech for NC early doesn't do you much good unless you immediately build NC. And doing GL and NC back-to-back, while making your workers chop early (instead of farm and hook up luxuries) delays cities 2,3,4 a lot and usually makes you grow slower and bring in less gold and growth.

Now, look at the bonus: a free tech, which is okay, early entrance to the classical, 3 science, a free library, and GS point. A library which would have taken you 2/3 of the time to build GL.

The tech: not really significant. I find being a tech or two ahead or behind early makes no difference as spies and trade routes even the playing field later. What matters more is ramping up your base science as early as possible which generates sustainable tech lead. And, you've also delayed 2nd and 3rd cities by 25 turns, which is bad. You got NC early, true, and will probably stay ahead for a time, but you also don't have much science for that 50% to multiply as you sacrificed growing well in the beginning and got no trade routes up to bring in science. (And if you get trade routes up, you waste even more time getting a settler). You also didn't hook up resources/luxes quick enough so you don't have as much early gold. I'd say it's a wash other than the +3 base science (effectively 3 extra pop worth), but you also could've gotten that by growth. You also have slots for writing with theming bonuses too though and a very early scientist point. This might mean 1 extra early scientist, especially with Babylon and if you also get oracle. So yes, it could theoretically finish you faster, but the advantages often end up small.

Now, realize again we are playing HOF rules so if you lost it you have delayed settlers, library, growth, etc, and are probably worse off. And, true to rules, you can't replay this map. This is why HOF's don't do GL. it's an easy way to ruin a good map if you lose. I'd only try it if I had a great production start, very early worker steal, and the tech for writing from a ruin. And if I tried it I would definitely not sacrifice early growth or more than 12 turns building it. I could see it finishing you faster, but not bc of the free tech, more bc of the +3 science and GS point which will make a small, but significant contribution down road, maybe making an 8-turn end-time difference, the free library also helps mitigate putting off the library so you haven't lost there. If you also didn't sacrifice growth and were able to get out your slowed-down trade routes and settlers immediately and very fast (like 7 turns a settler, 5 turns per caravan). Which is also why I wouldn't try it without a great production/growth start (salt) or the like. You want to be able to make up what you put of very fast.

I think it's generally understood that not having that early food route to the capital, not having a gold/science route (often +5 science on deity), delaying settling your first city by 30 turns, 2nd by 20, and putting off granaries, shrine, and library often makes GL a wash other than the GS point. As there are so many things it changes, it's often not clear if it even helped till far into the game, and as others have noted, when it works it often seems a wash.

Note: I had a Pocatello/immortal game with salt start where I stole two early workers, was able to pick my ruins and score GL. He is probably the easiest to do it with as some have noted. I don't recall it really changing much, but I did notice a lot of nearby AI start coveting my wonders. Luckily I had early Comps to repel the invasions.

you are doing what ? Holding growth? Who said such thing ...
Obviously you don't have to do it on all starts, but not taking it when you can sounds plain bad to me. Especially with Babylon, where you are going for early writing anyway.

One city NC and then expansion is actually a very valid strategy anyway.

Problem with GL is the fact that you can actually lose the race, not the GL itself. If you get it you are always ahead, unless you do something stupid like not growing in the same time.

Now here is an example from my one of the few GLs I ever built (thats on Emp).
Yes some smart guy will now say : you don't have Granary/Water mill - thats true, but thats because the HG, not the GL. In this game the choise was worker or granary early. After this with granary maybe the city would've been 9 or 10. But I'd definitely not have education on T90 and definitely no HG as well (as the turns to research Philosophy actually do matter).

And there is one thing that has to be mentioned. On lower levels, AI doesn't have often luxes to trade/sell. So ultra speed growth doesn't really work that well. Still even at deity, I start expanding around T40, and around T90 cities are not that bigger than this.

So I really don't get the pointless arguments. GL is fantastic, but you need good terrain to take full advantage of it.

dragonxxx said:

you are doing what ? Holding growth? Who said such thing ...
Obviously you don't have to do it on all starts, but not taking it when you can sounds plain bad to me. Especially with Babylon, where you are going for early writing anyway.

One city NC and then expansion is actually a very valid strategy anyway.

Problem with GL is the fact that you can actually lose the race, not the GL itself. If you get it you are always ahead, unless you do something stupid like not growing in the same time.

Now here is an example from my one of the few GLs I ever built (thats on Emp).
Yes some smart guy will now say : you don't have Granary/Water mill - thats true, but thats because the HG, not the GL. In this game the choise was worker or granary early. After this with granary maybe the city would've been 9 or 10. But I'd definitely not have education on T90 and definitely no HG as well (as the turns to research Philosophy actually do matter).

And there is one thing that has to be mentioned. On lower levels, AI doesn't have often luxes to trade/sell. So ultra speed growth doesn't really work that well. Still even at deity, I start expanding around T40, and around T90 cities are not that bigger than this.

So I really don't get the pointless arguments. GL is fantastic, but you need good terrain to take full advantage of it.

Spoiler :

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The problem with that example, which we both played, you going for the GL, and I did not, is what happens as a result of going 1 city for so long. While you got education sooner (5 turns if I recall), I had better expansion cities as a result, in better locations. By turn 150, I believe we were even on tech, and by the end of the game, I was 20 turns ahead.

It is quite possible there were mistakes you made that resulted in you falling behind, but you can't dispute that your expansion cities were not nearly as strong as a direct result of going for the GL.

Maybe it was due to other choices, but it would seem at best, GL gives a tiny bonus, considering what it hurts.

Well, you can always make 1-2 cities after the GL, there is usually enough time for this. The thing is, that you are only delaying expansion if you want. The GL does its job meanwhile - giving you science, culture and saving you gpt If you do it around T40 and start with settlers - thats basicly same thing if you start expanding without GL when u hit 4-5 pop.

About that particular game - I don't really remember what happened at the end, but I am not really obsessed with finishing time. I try to avoid SV whenever possible anyway, as I don't really like the end game - game is usually won many turns before the final screen. Thats why most of the time I just switch to domination in the very late game.

There's a HoF thread about this but it is a bit old. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521065

Best so far is thorak's t221 SV with Aztec/Lakes.

I will put in a few more attempts now that I'm back from vacation.

I suggest if you play by HoF rules then enforce it by requiring everyone to submit for approval. You guys might think that rerolling for the ideal map is an advantage but a lot of can go wrong and you got no way to reload to "undo" your mistakes This has become my preferred way of playing because you just don't know how many times people reload in the deity challenges. I've only completed 3 HoF deity games so far but hope to step that up a bit.

wow not bad dragnonxxx! How did you get all those improvements by t83 with only 1 worker though? I count 12 improvement totaling about 66 turns to complete not including travel time. Really early worker steal from AI?

I made the point that if you did it you shouldn't nerf growth. I was more talking about the secondary effects: by chopping with your worker first you delay farms/improvements that might bring in extra food and gold. I was assuming almost everyone was chopping, but I guess it's possible you get salt and get growht+production by improving it and early gold--that's a good comprise. Still, by building it you delay at least one early settler about 25 turns, so your empire's "growth" is slowed. The bigger point. In your case though it looks like you minimized the downsides, however, I see you had to give up an early trade route. On Deity that can be +5 science early which closes the gap on these strategies. If you had build a caravan after the two settlers I'd say you probably came out ahead. I wouldn't have plunged into Oracle right away, especially with only 1 worker on hand.

Trade route below deity is not that big. I don't bother with em on immortal, and on Emp with babylon at this stage of the game you are sometimes already 1st in science , so no need to bother with this

Its 2 workers (second is in Dur-K on the cattle - I don't really remember, as that was very long time ago, but I think I went scout-scout-shrine-worker -GL-NC. And probably the scout got one from Hanoi. Worker steals on emperor are unreliable, so its better to just build one if you need it early. And with Salt, you definitely do

Ahh! Okay, that makes more sense, I do the same on immortal- . And gold is aplenty by selling luxes so it's not as worth it for just the gold. I find sometimes you go top-tree and AI go bottom though so sometimes you still get a few extra points from routes. What was your finish-time after this start?

don't remember, I usually tend to start playing bad at the end of SV games, when there is zero chance of losing. And thats basicly all non-deity games, I don't remember when I last had a scary end game on immortal. Never cared that much about finish time anyway. Probably around t270 - see terrain is far from perfect, as the mountains don't have much food around em, and there is a lot of plain desert. Uzael played same map (it was posted here somewhere), and did something around T250,

Thats the reason I started playing deity, as games can actually be lost. On immortal, if you get some reasounable terrain with decent hill city spots, and you don't get Zulu next door its very hard to lose when you get some xp. And by very hard - I mean losing to a random diplo vote, with Alex in the game, what is actually kinda hard to happen too.

Even if the AI rushes you, if you settle good cities, they cannot do much on immortal, unless you play careless. The other option is just to spawn between Huns and Mongolia. Practicly, the only AI that can hurt you alone is Zulu, and that only if you have a lot of open terrain and he is very close to you. If u survive to the late game, you cannot lose no matter who's next door, as you are always ahead on tech no later than industrial.

Where on deity, even if you do everything right, you can still lose to CV or diplo. My first game the AI could launch several turns before me, if I had not nuked him And that was in the 27x's. Such things cannot happen on immortal