building Monument before Legalism
- Thread starter TaiLzx
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The Pilgrim
Deity
Yes. But if you don't sell it, you get a free amphitheater.
compwiz1202
King
Interesting, I never even thought of that one 
I think I'd prefer the auto Ampitheater on researching Drama and Poetry. If by some weird chance you had four cities all the way to Broadcast Towers because you got Legalism, would all the Broadcast Towers become free, or would you have to sell them to make them free?
I think I'd prefer the auto Ampitheater on researching Drama and Poetry. If by some weird chance you had four cities all the way to Broadcast Towers because you got Legalism, would all the Broadcast Towers become free, or would you have to sell them to make them free?
jddods
Prince
Interesting, I never even thought of that one
funny you should ask, did that last night, got 4 free towers, sold the one in my capital first though
compwiz1202
King
Awesome, thanks!
Note that this is only in G&K.
With Vanilla if you have a Monument but don't have the tech yet for a Temple, you get nothing.
As a side note; I'm finding myself NOT building a Monument in the capital with Tradition. I'm instead (after a scout unit if this isn't a water map) starting a worker, interrupting it 10 turns later when Pottery is discovered, placing a Shrine in front of the worker and the Granary following it. Getting the worker earlier seems to have a better trade off than a free amphitheater.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Obviously, amphitheaters didn't exist in vanilla. And Legalism itself was bugged and weird. Although I thought it has been patched to a degree with G&K release. Hasn't it?
Well, sure, if you reroll until you get Petra start.
Not everybody plays for HoF. The vast majority doesn't in fact. Skipping monument has its advantages. For me the biggest one is that this way it's much easier to time Rationalism as second tree without being forced to pick fillers. On the other hand, you're not only giving up on free amphitheater but also delaying Landed Elite and ultimately the finisher.
Yes, that is the other reason I like getting the monument with legalism. If I built monument first, or monument after scout, it gets very difficult to time rationalism. I'm willing to take the polices half a dozen turns later ... and not have to build the monument, getting earlier worker and/or granary, which also yield food ... in exchange.
The Pilgrim
Deity
More like dozen of turns later, but that's not the point. You can still get screwed by picking culture ruin, accidental cultural friend/ally or not teching fast enough (due to later food boosters) and then after taking a filler policy you'll wait for Rationalism much much longer. This part is really tricky and annoying I must say.
You could certainly make it dozens of turns on standard speed if you dilly dally with aristocracy or even oligarchy before legalism. However, by my math, if you bee-line legalism and landed elite or monarchy, you will get tradition after 25 turns and, at 4 culture a turn, legalism after another 12 turns. If you build monument first, before scout, in 8 turns, you will get tradition after 14 turns and, at 6 culture a turn, legalism after another 8 turns. This is 37 turns versus 22 turns, for a maximum difference of 15 turns (again, without going to aristocracy first). The difference is reduced to 12 turns just for going scout first before monument. I estimate the actual difference to be a bit lower because of wonders and national wonders built before the renaissance lowering the spread, but there the math goes a bit fuzzy because every game is different.
More like dozen of turns later, but that's not the point. You can still get screwed by picking culture ruin, accidental cultural friend/ally or not teching fast enough (due to later food boosters) and then after taking a filler policy you'll wait for Rationalism much much longer. This part is really tricky and annoying I must say.
Or you can just allow policy saving.
The Pilgrim
Deity
One dozen. I didn't do the exact math, but that's approximately the difference between scout-monument and scout-whatever.
No thanks.
Zezima
Professional Troll
This is what I do as well. I've been playing with policy saving almost as long as I've been playing CiV. Just don't enjoy being forced to choose a policy I don't necessarily want.
I also have been finding myself holding off on Monument before Legalism when I go Tradition. Scout -> Worker is a lot better, IMO, especially since I am so used to a quick worker from Liberty. And like others have said, early payoffs are generally better than later ones.
That and I, too, have found myself wasting the free Petra amphitheater when I go Legalism after Monument way too many times.
Smokeybear
Emperor
I haven't done policy saving since like the first couple months CiV came out... if you choose to use it, do the AI civs use it as well? If so, do they use it intelligently? Or could those dummies even know what an intelligent policy save delay is? Or does the AI just continue to pick a policy immediately whenever they get enough to culture to do so? Or does that policy-saving choice only apply to the human player?
Zezima
Professional Troll
It seems to me that the AI never takes advantage of the option, but I've never tested it empirically.
When I get the "Who has adopted the most social policies" pop up, I still see civs like Egypt way ahead of me in the early game (2-3 policies). In addition, many times I still seem to be the first one to adopt an industrial age policy, even if I am not the first to get there technologically. I know this since I like to check which policies other civs have adopted so I know how my diplo will be influenced.
Checking diplomacy overview throughout the game seems to result in the same blend of Tradition/Liberty/Honor, one of Patronage/Rationalism/Commerce, and eventually their preferred industrial policy.
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