How do you quantify a "loss"?

I've been wondering this for a while now: how does everyone decide when a game is "lost"? Do you consider every game you don't end with a victory a loss, or do you make accommodations for re-rolls, horrible maps, unfun games, etc?

I ask this because I was playing around with some random Deity games the other day and got Persia. The map ended up being a total pain in the ass:



I was totally locked in by desert to the north and Gehngis to the south. His borders and city spam at a choke point blocked me from meeting any other civs, forcing me to go Optics on a Pangaea map just to meet other civs in a reasonable timeframe. He also went and conquered Genoa, which I liberated in that screenshot. I pushed ahead to Turfan and took it, but then hit a wall; his capital was on a hill behind another hill next to a choke point where ANOTHER city could shoot at. There was literally one tile(said hill) that could avoid being hit by both cities. Add onto this the endless Keshik spam, and I quit because, while not unwinnable, the game was no longer fun. That got me wondering: did I lose, or is it different because I stopped playing when it was no longer enjoyable?

Light Cleric said:

I've been wondering this for a while now: how does everyone decide when a game is "lost"? Do you consider every game you don't end with a victory a loss, or do you make accommodations for re-rolls, horrible maps, unfun games, etc?

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When I used to play quite a lot more back in Vanilla I rarely finished a game and never with a leader I've already won. Usually I quite on T125-175 whenever the game was won beyond doubt but I didn't consider them as won but played - loss was practically non-existent in vanilla. I can remember one when bloody Gandhi launched few turns before I could as did bother to nuke him into oblivion, we had DoF & all that sentimental crap.

In G&K I started a habit of rerolling until I get an interesting start - with limited time I don't wanna spend it on something repetitive if I can easily avoid it. Last game I lost was one of Hammer's sci tests - I tested something which proved to be highly unsuccesful. It's healthy to lose once in a while but if I'd count all the games I've not technically won I'd have lost well over 90% over my games.

To summarize it the definitions of wins and losts are ultimately meaningless to me - I like winning more than losing but in the end it's about any given game being interesting on it's own or as a part of something external like the CFC challenges in various forms.

That reminds me of a first Deity game i played with my friend, to whom i demonstrated civ5 in the process. Back in vanilla that was. I rolled India on a tiny island completely covered with tundra, with 1 Fur and 1 Sheep in the area. After laughing at the map for a bit i decided to play it out. (i couldn't just roll it and show my mate i am a noob) Deity, Continents, India - everything was completely above my league. Long story short, i won with Diplo. My island was so far away from the rest of the world that everybody loved me from day one. Besides, i never settled city number 3. I kept good relations with 5 civs and accumulated money through all means available. In the end i invested all i had in 5 CS's and won, because Darius was stupid enough to finish UN, while constructing final SS parts..

So, did i actually win that one?

On a serious note, yeah, i think you lost. The fact that you can win 1 Deity game out of 3 makes you a very skilled player already. Finding your way out of impossible situations will certainly make you an even better player, in my opinion.

Grendeldef said:

To summarize it the definitions of wins and losts are ultimately meaningless to me - I like winning more than losing but in the end it's about any given game being interesting on it's own

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Pretty much this. Struggles or losing games are sometimes much more interesting and/or thrilling than a clear win game. If I reroll a map early in the game, I certainly don't consider it a loss in my mind. Time is valuable and I want to spend it on something I find mentally stimulating, win or lose.

The win conditions in this game are already sketchy at best. You can be clearly losing a game for 300 straight turns and snipe out a diplo/domination victory. Thus, I am more concerned about fun than win/loss. If I roll a Deity map and it isn't going anywhere, I have no issues with dropping the map and trying something else. Sure, if I slogged through another 150 turns I may be able to snipe out a win, but if those 150 turns are nothing but pure suck, why bother?

I scrap up games that are not fun. I can't see a reason to keep playing if that't the case. Like starting isolated as Attila. Kthx. No. Does this mean I lost? I don't think so. I still have a lot of unfinished games that are anything but won including deity. Did I lose them? I still don't think so. On the other hand, I can't say I won either. Usually I can estimate my chances of winning pretty accurately. And if I can't, if I reroll or abandon the game when they're unclear, so be it. I don't try to categorize them this way or another. Bottom line, what Gren said. Who cares?

Moriarte said:

So, did i actually win that one?

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Hell yes! A win is a win is a win!

And even if it's not satisfying enough for you, it's a great confidence booster, isn't it?

You weren't beaten, and you didn't win. I call games like that an "Ah crud, nevermind. Next...".

hey guys

quick question; how can I get that "faction list"?

Are you referring to the single player score list, which appears below the diplo/culture/espionage buttons on the top right? If so, you can enable it in interface options on the Options menu.

Thank you my friend

Yeah, definitely when a game gets too uninteresting... OR when an AI manages to bushwhack the capital in an interesting manner. Had a former example recently that's been putting me off early game starts for a while now: I was rolling on this Immortal Hemispheres map a while back - three civs, one of which me, on a continent. Two others were Ramm and Darius. Got three cities up and pumping archers, T60+ got them to CBs. Ramm didn't like me settling close despite him being "Friendly". I spotted him fielding a massive army of warriors, spears and archers, at first looking like they were out hunting innocuous barb camps but increasingly becoming transparent I mean holy crap that's so obvious



Immediately got him DOWed, got his entire army annihilated with only one warrior loss, took his cap which made me lose half my army, then took out Persia's second city and got a super nice peace deal of 400g + 8gpt and luxes. And that was before the Camels arrived. Yeah retired that one straight away, which was a shame because it turns out the other continent had a Runaway Hiawatha tearing chunks out of Nappy and Alex... and there was a Gandhi doing decently in his little corner. Oh well, maybe I shouldn't have retired that one, but it felt uninteresting after wiping the floor on my small continent (Persepolis was only a matter of time).

Later era starts are a mixed bag as well. This one was hilarious enough for me to continue a bit and now share: It was indu on Immortal Frontiers. Apparently started off next to Alex, like real super close. Went immediately into Rationalism and got to tech up to Artillery but Alex of course had different ideas and that was to kill Rossiya off starting with St Petersburg



It was all doom and gloom, Rossiya's 2nd city had literally no defense save this last minute upgraded Rifleman that got immediately turned into pink mist by Alex's many cannonae/crossbows



But the joke was on him since I had artillery + Cossacks/rifles on his border. Took out Sparta... then Alex rushed the Brandenburgs in his own cap





I literally laughed until Simo Hayha's grave got spit out of the earth and rolled around Pluto's orbit. Eventually even took Corinth after the peace treaty ended, and Alex ended up holed up in St. Petersburg. I thought I might just continue this with bushwhacking Monty/Hiawatha and Biz... then it turns out that they were on another continent/s and that me and Alex started off alone on one while Gustavus was being a cancerous thing in need of a Swedish Pesticide



Well that got terribly uninteresting real fast since I could see how the way the game will go, and I didn't want that to go down thataway. On Immortal.

So retired.

But what about the other bit, the one where the AI will do something impressive in taking out the cap?

Well, there's this recently:



I never retired just because some AI managed to bushwhack me out in a brute force manner, at least in this kind of start; in fact. was planning to fight on from my other cities despite Carthaginian and Egyptian (tech leader) armies at the gates, but the way Nappy did it just impressed the heck out of me. I expected his ships to bumble around for at least another turn before bringing the walls down - he did it in one.

And it turns out he brought a lot of units, some of them modern destroyers instead of that ramshackle fleet of frigate/ironclads




Usually there are plenty some games I've termed as Long Games, and they just mean that cap is still intact and there's an okayish amount of land at hand but winning (thru Dom) will take quite a while longer. Into the Future-style. Either because of some crazy tech leader (Sejong/Hiawatha comes to mind) or because I did something horribly, horribly wrong somewhere in the early and mid-game. Those ones are okay in my book though, since rear ends can still be kicked even after some bugger launches in T270 or some such. So long as the lands are secured and ready for (or at) war.

Looking at OP's game, it looks like an okay game that would either get drawn out into a race for Bombers or artillery. Definitely wouldn't consider it as a loss, but I can see why it can become uninteresting (unless... mebe can win 22,000g + cities and luxes from Versailles?)

Well, if I don't win between t250-275 I abandon the game as lost. Kinda sad really.

all of my games are losses ... of time.

i havent been playing lately with my normal rigor. it's hard to play enthusiastically with tactics/assumptions that are going away with the new expansion. challenges/gotms/hofs keep it interesting for now. i'll wait for more info to come out regarding the expansion but im not one to immediately buy them so I have maybe a few months longer than most to 'catch up'.

There are two types of losses for me: "getting Ozymandias" and "cowering away from Ozymandias".

Getting Ozymandias is when the defeat screen shows up, as it is reminiscent of the Ozymandias poem (retiring from a match by clicking Retire also counts, as the Ozymandias screen also shows up this way, even if one is winning).

Cowering away from Ozymandias is when one leaves a match in the middle without actually retiring. Sometimes one would quit one turn (or a few turns) before the Ozymandias screen would actually show up, possibly because the person knows that he/she will get Ozymandias.

Leaving a match when one finds his/her civilization having a bad start is also considered cowering away from Ozymandias.

God of Kings said:

Leaving a match when one finds his/her civilization having a bad start is also considered cowering away from Ozymandias.

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Mighty fancy way of saying you just don't want to waste a bunch of time getting your butt kicked.

God of Kings said:

Leaving a match when one finds his/her civilization having a bad start is also considered cowering away from Ozymandias.

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Not really. Many (probably most) of the games are winnable. This particular start is ugly indeed, yet, knowing LC I'd put my money on him if he says the game is not unwinnable. The way to the win may not be fun though and is not worth his time and energy.

The Pilgrim said:

Not really. Many (probably most) of the games are winnable. This particular start is ugly indeed, yet, knowing LC I'd put my money on him if he says the game is not unwinnable. The way to the win may not be fun though and is not worth his time and energy.

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Kind of this, yeah. Gehngis was certainly not breaking me down at all; I had the choke point blocked off with fortified Cover Immortal Pikes

I could have kept going, pushed to Education and gotten some good beakers that way, as well as waited for a 2nd GG to citadel bomb into his territory to cut off the spam, but like you said, I was just not getting enough enjoyment out of it to justify playing it over another map or game(I've been hooked on Lost Story lately . Also, knowing the way the map is, I could have a better outcome by playing differently, but I am not big on replaying maps that aren't particularly interesting


Ended up re-rolling as the Celts and experimented with them(one of my least favorite civs). I'm extremely frustrated with it because Sejoong AND Suleiman did the "move your troops or DoW) thing on the same friggin' turn because I was moving my units around to another city:



They both dropped garbage cities that have *no* reason to exist, and then get to complain about my troops moving around? I took the one on Korea to chip at them, but I can't do anything to Suleiman while he's free to tech up and build Himeji Castle while I'm helpless to stop him...yeah, that's really fun and fair. Suleiman's was especially egregious, given that he settled a city between THREE of mine(it dropped after Palenique was captured) and then complains about my troops.

Also, people have said the Pictish faith on kill carries over now, but it doesn't. I killed like 5 units with Pictish Pikes and didn't get squat.

were you in your territory?

Most of them were, yeah, which pisses me off. I had a few units down there cleaning up some Mayan garbage units(since I took his capital I That screenshot was taken the turn after or two turns after(I forget) when I bought Hong Kong up.

Or did you mean the Pictish? I killed units all over the place. I know I killed at least one Ottoman unit(a Janissary) outside my territory. I didn't think that was supposed to matter anyway, just for the foreign lands bonus.

Faith on kills does not carry over on upgrade from Pictish Warriors to Pikes. Foreign lands combat bonus does carry over.