LK76 - AWE - Pangea, No armies, Random Civ

Difficulty = Emperor
Civilization = Random*
Pangaea with everything else random.
World Size = Small

* I reserve the right not to play a Civ active in a LK series game, or recent AW game.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Zwingli
hotrod0823
Open slot

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
We are prohibit from every building an army. All leaders will do is rush infrastructure.


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The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Rape - if you have to ask...

RoP Abuse that includes things such as irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, putting a unit to block a land bridge, etc.

Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave. The same scenario also applies to workers.

False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end).

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

Resources disconnect / connect exploit - I consider most resource tactics fine. Delaying to hook a resource, trading it away etc is fine. The exploit is to do this every turn. Build a stack of horses, connect saltpeter, upgrade to cavalry, and disconnect.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another land mass.

Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.
2) No worker purchases during the first 50 turns to avoid civ crippling.
3) Declaring war / demanding leave solely for the purpose of getting out of trade deals. This includes nonsense spying simply to force a war. Stealing techs is fine.
4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.
5) Our trading reputation is golden - please respect it.
6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.
7) Once you post a skip notice it is irrevocable.
8) If I skip a player to due a missed got it, or over due turn the turn is invalid if the next player has posted a got it.

OK, sign me up

Checking in.

Initial thoughts:

Artillery is going to be very important in this game. In normal AW, artillery is usually only used defensively what with armies being so good at offense and taking out cities.

Distance 3 City placement will be even more important, especially if we don't get horses right away. We won't have the faster armies to quickly shore up our defenses. We will want to make sure we don't accidentally place cities at distance 4 or misplace cities.

Distance 3 City placement will be even more important, especially if we don't get horses right away. We won't have the faster armies to quickly shore up our defenses. We will want to make sure we don't accidentally place cities at distance 4 or misplace cities.

Click to expand...

I agree 110%. The dotmap, and agreement on it will be more critical this game. We can't simply wander way away and destroy every thing in site. I hope this game will have us at least need to build factories...

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Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Zwingli
hotrod0823
meldor

OK LK76 is full, and I will start it today.

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LK77 still has 3 openings if anyone is interested.

4000 BC
Our random civ is the Netherlands. Swiss Mercs will get a well timed GA. Seafaring sucks at an AW trait. I never argue with agricultural and faster city growth. Our settler moves as I don't want to start on a bonus grassland tile.


3950 BC
Amsterdam is formed. Our first goal is Warrior Code.


3250 BC
(IT) Our next science goal is Bronze Working.


3000 BC
Rotterdam is formed.
(IT) The most powerful nations are the Aztecs, Babylonians, Persians, Sumerians and Mongols. 4 of our 5 opponents have the potential for an ancient age GA.


2750 BC
It is always annoying when you were just $1 short of the next science project.
(IT) The next goal is the wheel to locate the source of horses.

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Summary:
The very early contact has been avoided. Additional exploring can wait until we have a few more units on the map.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Zwingli (on deck)
hotrod0823
Meldor

Our general game plan:
1) To target our cities to always be 3 apart tiles. With no armies it is really critical to keep this rule going.
2) Science research must be very aggressive with deficit spending if we can afford it.
3) Try to build the roads before the city to take maximum advantage of the 3 tile city plans.
4) Raze all cities unless they have a useful wonder.
5) We must the Great Library pre-build by the time writing arrives.
6) Our first leader should be for an optimal FP location.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Additional restriction: No armies
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK76-2550BC.zip


This is our initial dot map. I see the priority as red, yellow, green then blue. Part of the reason for red and yellow first is the river. We want to take advantage of agricultural as much as possible. Blue is a fishing village with limited potential. I will do another dot map after these 4 cities are built.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to move the blue dot one square NE?

The advantage is that it will be within 3 squares of our capitol and thus easier defend. It also grabs more grasslands to support citizens in the hills and mountains for real shields.

The disadvantage is that the red city is then better one square north (still a decent square) which in turn would move the yellow city to a less favorable location (away from the river (1 square NE I am guessing)

It may be worth it though as the blue square will be within 3 of a non-front line city (capitol) which is a better place to provide an extra defender from.


If we don't like the above alternative then we can simply provide the blue city with a heavier guard so that it is ignored. On a hill and with walls and 2 or 3 spears would probably scare the AI from attacking it. It ties up units that won't be used however.

I'll join up as well if there's still room I've really got the AWE bug I think...

I also realized the river between Amsterdam and Rotterdam means neither town is one move away from the other until engineering. In fact the units in our capitol can not move to any city in 1 turn and only green can reach our capitol if we follow the current dot map.

On the other hand, I hate giving up a river city and the faster growth that such a city entails. Since the capitol won't be front line, maybe we do want to go for the better city placement and not worry so much our units in the capitol need to remain in the capitol. It would be preferable to have 2 cities that could reach the capitol in 1 move if a boat load of units were dropped however.

In any case, I got the game. If I get to the point of moving a settler to build a town, then I will stop.

Preturn: All looks good.

2430 BC: Archer built and is put between the towns so it can reach either.
Capitol is going for a granary next while Rotterdam is building a spear.

2350 BC: We get the wheel. I start Ironworking next. Sometimes I like to go for Masonry (walls) first, but we have plenty of chances for close iron.

2270 BC: Spot a Persian settler/warrior pair. Persia will not trade Masonry for Alphabet, so I suspect they know someone else (that has alphabet). I trade Pottery and Alphabet for Masonry and 10 gold. I declare war. It may mean there is iron in the nearby mountains that Persia is heading for.

2190 BC: The Persian settler settles too early for us to attack and claim 2 workers.

2150 BC: Our one archer and a warrior is outside the Persian city, so we should be able to take the city next turn.

I made a stab at a dot map that moves the blue town close enough to the capitol to support it.

What do you all think about this one?

I disagree with the granary in Amsterdam. We only have two cities, and can't afford to focus on a worker / settler source this early. I could possibly see it with a food bonus, but without it I don't see the value this early.

When those Persian starting units arrive it will get ugly. The granary cost us 3 archers / spearman, or possibly another city started before the Persian rush.

No matter what Amsterdam should work the grassland. The granary still completes in 3, and the city grows a turn sooner. The first growth will still get food in the bin.

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I made a stab at a dot map that moves the blue town close enough to the capitol to support it.

Click to expand...

No matter what we do blue dot is a low shield city. By moving it one we take away all the water tiles. This city was going to be a fishing village for income. By moving it you have a city with neither high shields nor high income. With the city being so close to the capitol I would like for it to have at least one of the two. I want to stick with my initial dot map.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Zwingli (currently playing)
hotrod0823 (on deck)
Meldor

Our general game plan:
1) To target our cities to always be 3 apart tiles. With no armies it is really critical to keep this rule going.
2) Science research must be very aggressive with deficit spending if we can afford it.
3) Try to build the roads before the city to take maximum advantage of the 3 tile city plans.
4) Raze all cities unless they have a useful wonder.
5) We must the Great Library pre-build by the time writing arrives.
6) Our first leader should be for an optimal FP location.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Additional restriction: No armies
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

Tarkeel said:

I'll join up as well if there's still room I've really got the AWE bug I think...

Click to expand...

Sorry, but this one already has 5. I seen some games go with 6, but I think that makes it take to long between turns.

Got it, but will wait for comment on the dot map to continue.

Edit: See the commentary was made while I was reading.

The rivers and mountains are going to make defense somewhat troublesome, and the Persian starting units are undoubtedly on the way so hopefully we won't get a second contact for a while.

I felt we needed the Granary even more because we don't have a food bonus. Our growth will be dreadfully slow; 14 turns per city without it. It will keep our city size large so we will have more shields. We can stay at size 5 and 6 instead of 2 and 3 giving us more shields.

It is a tricky problem because you don't know when you will meet the first civ. In this game if we had built it immediately we would probably be bigger now (doing so risks loss of shields if you get very early contact, however) with more cities to our empire.

When we did make contact, we were far enough along that finishing the granary seemed to make sense. If we had gotten contact a bit earlier, I would have switched to a unit.

I think we will have finished the Granary before the main attack comes and it will benefit us in the long run.

2150 BC (0)
MM Amsterdam for growth.

2110 BC (1)
We produce another archer, start spearman
The vet archer outside Arbela attacks, but dies only inflicting 1 damage. Our reg warrior vs. the 2 hp warrior fortified on a hill would essentially be a coin flip, so I hold off the attack. The warrior moves to a mountain to look out for incoming Persians.

2070 BC (2)
Not much
IBT- The granary completes in Amsterdam, start an archer

2030 BC (3)
MM Amsterdam so that the archer will complete in 1 turn with the forest chop.
IBT- Amsterdam completes another archer, starts settler

1990 BC (4)
The forest chop reveals yet another bonus grass , MM Amsterdam for growth.
Our archers begin a tentative advance on Arbela.

1950 BC (5)
Rotterdam starts a worker after completing spearman

1910 BC (6)
Arbela has just completed a spearman (based on the timing they whipped it), so we will need a more significant force to make another attack.
IBT- Our warrior fortified outside Arbela is attacked by the reg warrior from the city and wins flawlessly. Two more Persian warriors are en-route from the north.

1870 BC (7)
Rotterdam worker->spearman
Move the Arbela warrior to intercept the Persian warriors.

1830 BC (8)
Amsterdam settler->archer. Reduce science slider for extra gold on the last turn.
Move the settler toward red dot and fortify the Arbela warrior on a hill.
IBT- Our Arbela warrior defeats 2 Persian warriors taking 1 damage and promoting.
We learn Ironworking and start Writing at best rate

1790 BC (9)
We have a source of iron on the mountain next to Rotterdam
With no current Persian threats, two archers advance to Arbela to join the warrior.

1750 BC (10)
The Hague is founded on Red dot and starts a worker. MM our cities for maximum gold/science as both projects will be due in 1 turn.

Post Turn
We have 2 workers, one is roading toward green dot and the second is mining the bonus grassland. The cities will need to be remanaged for shields next turn as they are currently maximizing income.

Next player will have the option of attacking Arbela with 2 vet archers and 1 injured warrior vs. a reg spearman on a hill (units are unmoved). Since emperor AI cities grow every 8 turns without bonus food, they will be able to whip another spear in 4 turns. I would assume that the rest of Persia's starting units are stuck defending cities right now (they have 4), so we might be able to build a couple more settlers.

Edit: We currently have 1 turn of research invested in Writing, but Mathematics may be a desirable alternative. If we are reseaching Writing, Literature, and Mathematics it will take ~40 turns to get all three depending on contacts. I suppose the decision rests on how long we can go without catapults.

Greebley said:

I felt we needed the Granary even more because we don't have a food bonus. Our growth will be dreadfully slow; 14 turns per city without it. It will keep our city size large so we will have more shields. We can stay at size 5 and 6 instead of 2 and 3 giving us more shields.

Click to expand...

This is a play style issue that we will never agree on. I prefer to have the at least 2 to 3 cities on military before I risk a granary.

However, it is NOT 14 turns per city without it. As our other cities get large they also strip off a settler. With out the ability to build temples, and no visible luxuries we can't afford cities much bigger then size 4 without choking on the luxury tax rate.

Based on our bad luck with Arbela I would have been happier with a couple more units and that city destroyed.

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Zwingli said:

Edit: We currently have 1 turn of research invested in Writing, but Mathematics may be a desirable alternative. If we are researching Writing, Literature, and Mathematics it will take ~40 turns to get all three depending on contacts. I suppose the decision rests on how long we can go without catapults.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't argue with some catapults. We are nowhere close to being able to start the pre-build for the Great Library. Since that is the primary reason to get writing, I so no reason for writing yet. We need more cities free for military building before we can afford a GL pre-build.

LKendter said:

This is a play style issue that we will never agree on. I prefer to have the at least 2 to 3 cities on military before I risk a granary.

However, it is NOT 14 turns per city without it. As our other cities get large they also strip off a settler. With out the ability to build temples, and no visible luxuries we can't afford cities much bigger then size 4 without choking on the luxury tax rate.

Based on our bad luck with Arbela I would have been happier with a couple more units and that city destroyed.

Click to expand...

I do agree that an early granary carries more risk that bad RNG will hurt you since you have fewer units early on. I can agree on holding off until we have 2-3 cities on military. I don't think there is any "right" answer to this problem.

lurker's comment:

You may have gotten Arbela if you had waited one more turn so that you wouldn't be attacking from across the river...

I've got it and will see what I can do later today.

Hotrod

BTW, I noticed a town that was on "emphasize food". Isn't that option totally useless? When you grow any excess food gets thrown away (we always have an empty or half-full after growth).

That is why you always want to set to emphasize production. It gives you more shields instead of less and the same amount of food.

In otherwords, emphasise food is completely useless unless you use govenors, or you don't MM the town to go back to food after growth.

Am I wrong here?