solenoozerec
Stranger
I decided to start this poll because of the discussion, which is going on in COTM05 pre-game discussion.
What should predator class be?
What should predator class be?
Predator class
- Thread starter solenoozerec
- Start date
solenoozerec
Stranger
I have not cast a vote myself as I have no strong opinion about this yet.
bradleyfeanor
King
Darkness said:
I like Predator the way it is also. If it were redesigned to be merely a handicap, with no chance of reward for extra challenge or risk, why would anyone who wanted to get a medal play it? It seems Predator would end up being a completely seperate competition from Open if it were redesigned as only a handicap system.
Edit: I went with Dynamic (below) and voted for alternating. However, I should also mention that the first (and only) time I ever played Open, rather than Predator, was in the recent game where the Zulu's expansionist trait was removed. That was a clear disadvantage, with no possibility of reward (except for Dynamic's lucky barb, possibly!). I doubt I will voluntarily incure any such handicap in the near future. I'm not nearly good enough! yet!
Dynamic
But not hurry
I think the predators "bonus" may be different for different games. I want the AI bonus but some players believe that this is bonus for human and I vote for various changes. 
Ronald
Emperor
I would stop having the predator class at all, and this is why:
The level of additional challenge is mostly minimal. When a severe handicap is imposed on the player, almost nobody will take it. (one time , IIRC, predator started without a worker and there were almost no predator players).
As far as the AI benefits are, sometimes good players can turn that into their advantage. (I used predator class when my goal was spaceship or diplomatic victory because my reasoning was that a stronger AI will help me researching). To avoid this kind of cherrypicking and the discussion following whether this is OK or not, eliminate the predator class completely.
Instead use every two months or so one of the two games, gotm or cotm, to provide a real challenge for the predators, such as a deity or even Sid game.
Ronald
The level of additional challenge is mostly minimal. When a severe handicap is imposed on the player, almost nobody will take it. (one time , IIRC, predator started without a worker and there were almost no predator players).
As far as the AI benefits are, sometimes good players can turn that into their advantage. (I used predator class when my goal was spaceship or diplomatic victory because my reasoning was that a stronger AI will help me researching). To avoid this kind of cherrypicking and the discussion following whether this is OK or not, eliminate the predator class completely.
Instead use every two months or so one of the two games, gotm or cotm, to provide a real challenge for the predators, such as a deity or even Sid game.
Ronald
Darkness
Shadow creature
Well, Bradleyfeanor has quoted my opinion from the COTM05 prediscussion thread, so I think it's obvious if I say: Leave it the way it is.
And, BTW, the AI bonusses already vary per game for the predator level...
And, BTW, the AI bonusses already vary per game for the predator level...
bradleyfeanor said:
Flip that around: How can someone playing Open compete for a medal? Is Open class just another level, like conquests, to help a player master the game before they move on to the real GOTM?
I am not sure there is a problem with the way it is. I am more interested in the answer to the question: Was it designed/intended to be a handicap or a higher risk/reward scenario? My perception up until now was that it was a handicap to provide more of a challenge to achieve the same results. So I guess the answer to your question might be: For the glory of accomplishing something despite the handicap.
Darkness
Shadow creature
Ronald said:
Though I'd definately support this idea as well...
The predator level is fine the way it is, the only improvement to make games more comparable between predator class players and open class players is removing the predator class.
smackster
SGOTM
One of the goals of GOTM is to compare like games, so I'd like to limit the number of changes to the player as this can vary the start so much. I don't like removing civ traits as that means we are essentially playing different games.
I thought the point of the classes was, conquests - so that new players can play on a high difficulty level than they are used to, and predator - so that stronger players will still play Regent/Monarchy games. It is not designed so that Conquests and Open players have a better change of scoring better than predator. It is merely designed to encourage more participation.
I thought the point of the classes was, conquests - so that new players can play on a high difficulty level than they are used to, and predator - so that stronger players will still play Regent/Monarchy games. It is not designed so that Conquests and Open players have a better change of scoring better than predator. It is merely designed to encourage more participation.
denyd
Emperor
I think what might be interesting is to not tell the predators what the changes are and let them adjust on the fly to the additional challenge. I think knowing that the AI can help with research or if the AI has extra units can be an actual assist to the top players. If they didn't know that the AI was up a level on research or if the AI had an extra settler or that they had no worker would provide a more balanced challenge. (I checked other)
bradleyfeanor
King
Ronald said:
You have a very good point, and your arguement is sound. But I would like to see predator stay for two reasons:
1) I really enjoy trying to decide which game type (Pred v. Open) will benefit me the most in my chosen victory goal, and
2) I definitly like the additional challenges on the lower difficulty games. Without the additional challenges AND the chance at a medal, I imagine I would not play some of the lower difficulty GOTMs.
Ronald
Emperor
bradleyfeanor said:
In my opinion, the challenge is the competition with our fellow participants, not the AI. I would love to play a chieftain game once.
Ronald
bradleyfeanor said:
It is a friendly competition. So, I think great participation and having fun are couple of the primary goals here.
At the same time, the thought of players selecting between Open and Pedator for the most optimal chance for a medal is somewhat disturbing. It kind of makes me want to have two versions of the medals: normal for an Open win and "with clusters" (
) for Predator so I know the level of accomplishment.
I'm for removing the predator class in the current form of changing something in the game.
The influence on the game, if beneficial or not is just random.
If we still want a predator class, I would recommend to have self imposed rules, like no RoP abuse or peace treaty abuse.
This would be only on a honour system, but that's the whole competition anyways.
The influence on the game, if beneficial or not is just random.
If we still want a predator class, I would recommend to have self imposed rules, like no RoP abuse or peace treaty abuse.
This would be only on a honour system, but that's the whole competition anyways.
bradleyfeanor
King
dvandenberg said:
I have always viewed the two classes as an additional game decision, just like whether I found on the start or venture off into the great unknown.
I suppose the Pred/Open decision could give experienced players an additional advantage, which might not be a good thing in the spirit of even competition. I had not really considered that until this "Predator poll" started. Is that what you find disturbing, or is it another factor?
solenoozerec
Stranger
Now I think that it was wrong not to include in the poll an option to remove predator class, seems like many people support such an idea.
I still didn't cast a vote myself as I keep changing my opinion.
I have a tendency to favor existence of predator class, however.
Yes, indeed, the only way to make a competition fair is to play exactly the same game. But choosing between predator and open class also requires knowledge of this game and good skills.
It is just important that all players will have a clear understanding of two things:
1. what predator class is
2. That competition begins not with the first turn, but with a decision of what class to play.
I had no clear understanding of these things yesterday and I am not sure that I have it now.
I still didn't cast a vote myself as I keep changing my opinion.
I have a tendency to favor existence of predator class, however.
Yes, indeed, the only way to make a competition fair is to play exactly the same game. But choosing between predator and open class also requires knowledge of this game and good skills.
It is just important that all players will have a clear understanding of two things:
1. what predator class is
2. That competition begins not with the first turn, but with a decision of what class to play.
I had no clear understanding of these things yesterday and I am not sure that I have it now.
Dynamic
But not hurry
I think that flipping the class in every game is worthless. 
Predator and Open are 2 different games, just as Open and Conquest are different.
If you make me choose of playing between Pred. and Open, let me play Conquest as well, IF I fancy that.
Predators have a definite advantage on gaining techs faster that Open, and of course learn the vital techs turns ahead. It's not a competition.
There should be a poll too about Palace-jumps and ship-chaining, but I leave it with that. I haven't submitted any games since since the famous "bread-crumb-trailing" in COTM2, where I did get an award, but lost interest after that.
Good luck to you all.
If you make me choose of playing between Pred. and Open, let me play Conquest as well, IF I fancy that.
Predators have a definite advantage on gaining techs faster that Open, and of course learn the vital techs turns ahead. It's not a competition.
There should be a poll too about Palace-jumps and ship-chaining, but I leave it with that. I haven't submitted any games since since the famous "bread-crumb-trailing" in COTM2, where I did get an award, but lost interest after that.
Good luck to you all.
I voted for "A penalty for human player (e.g. removing a trait)". I think the intention of the predator class is to make a harder game, and the current predator class making for faster victories is just a side-effect of how this has been implemented.
