SGOTM5 - Team jeffelammar

SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team jeffelammar.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.



Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement.
The Constitution
The GOTM Reference Thread.
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

checking in

They seem to have transferred Bugsy's team to jeffelammer, more or less. So denyd and grahamiam are stuck with me again. Oh well, looking forward to playing this one. And since there seems to be a river to the southeast, I would suggest moving our scout there. Assuming there is one.

Nice to see some familar faces

I'd suggest SE-SE to the mountain for the scout to reveal the the most tiles.

What's the order of play?

I'm going to be unavailable the 23rd to 28th, so I'd like to be at either the top or bottom of the rotation, if possible.

Heya. Good to see everyone here. I look forward to it.

Hopefully I'll be finishing off SGOTM4 in the next two days and will be able to devote all SGOTM attention here

But I am definately now here are ready.

I'm here. I've finished my turns, jeff, so SGOTM4 is all yours.

I also like scout to the SE mountain.
I don't have a preference on turn order. We're in alphabetical order on the team listing, and that would suit me. Since denyd wants to be first or last, how about starting with denyd and going in alphabetical order (denyd, grahamiam, jeffelammar, bed_head7, CKS).

Are we trying the variant?

CKS's order is fine with me. and yes, i'm for the varient this is regent and i don't see any regent players on this team so we ought to at least tie a finger or 2 behind our backs
also, going for the river sounds logical. just hope it doesn't reach the coast in less than 3 tiles

edit: there are some serious changes to the rules as stated in the first post of SGOTM5 maintenance thread. i suggest we all check them out thoroughly

CKS said:

I don't have a preference on turn order. We're in alphabetical order on the team listing, and that would suit me. Since denyd wants to be first or last, how about starting with denyd and going in alphabetical order (denyd, grahamiam, jeffelammar, bed_head7, CKS).

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Sounds just fine to me. I was going to suggest something along those lines.

As for first moves.
We need to know two things. How far are we willing to move? And how can we be sure that we get good moves.
To me the Mountain to the west is as good as the one to the se. We reveal as much, and there is a river on each.
The advantage of the Mtn 2 west is that we know there is a forest in it's radius.
The advantage of 2 se is that it reveals 1 extra square.

The forest might have game, but if we are willing to move far, then that is less compelling.

I would propose sending the scout to one of the two and the worker toward the other (Assuming the scout finds nothing useful). Then the settler would follow one or the other based on better findings.

This start is obviously made to make us think, so let's see if there are any breadcrumbs out there that make us re-think. Anyone see anything?

Edit: Just tried some fog gazing. There are only 2 squares I can see that are not obviously tundra or Mountain. The one 3 west. The one 2se and 1 east.
They both look greener than any other square we can see anything of.

imho, we will have to move the settler around 4T (N/S or E/W) or 5T (NW/SE or NE/SW) to get away from the tundra, assuming that there actually is decent land at the equator. therefore, we should be willing to move a minimum of 4 turns and probably up to 7turn. we only have 1 built city so it's very important to make sure it's at a good location.
we should also build a barracks very quickly. at regent, we may be able to wage our 1st war with warriors and an archer or 2.

grahamiam said:

imho, we will have to move the settler around 4T (N/S or E/W) or 5T (NW/SE or NE/SW) to get away from the tundra, assuming that there actually is decent land at the equator. therefore, we should be willing to move a minimum of 4 turns and probably up to 7turn. we only have 1 built city so it's very important to make sure it's at a good location.
we should also build a barracks very quickly. at regent, we may be able to wage our 1st war with warriors and an archer or 2.

Click to expand...

Assuming that we are willing to move that far, I agree with everything you say.

I am going to throw this out there for thought. Shoot me down if you want.
From our starting position, the two "best" squares we can see are the forests n-nw and n-ne. With those squares and no bonuses we can get 5spt. This would be enough to generate a quick warrior rush. We would have our barracks about the time we grew to size two and the scout would probably have found out something about which way we want to go.
We could (and I think should) treat our first city as a throwaway. Just use it to build the Barracks and a few military units. Then take an enemy city and abandon the capitol getting a palace in a presumably better location. Hopefully the AI will build us a couple cities around our new capitol as well, making it a better setup than if we keep our capitol where we start.

In this scenario, getting the city quick is important and finding a good location becomes unimportant. We just need to be good enough to have the power to build the small starting military.

All that said, a good location revealed by our scout would blow all of this out of the water.

jeffelammar said:

All that said, a good location revealed by our scout would blow all of this out of the water.

Click to expand...

yep, that's the part i agree the most with (i would actually prefer that the 1st city not be a throwaway, but we may have no choice). i have no faith that a regent AI will build more than 1 or 2 cities before we warrior rush them in your scenario, and if they have a 2nd, it'll be size 1 with no culture that'll autoraze. maybe we should let 2nd cities gather culture by only attacking the capitol? probably the best bet.
the other thing we can due is play this as an 0cc for the 1st 50-60 turns, then unleash hell with our pent-up military.

so, denyd, let's get this one rolling, eh, before you get to enjoy your vacation if you want, you can move the scout and then post a screenie we can pontificate on, or you can make the executive decision based on what you see

grahamiam said:

maybe we should let 2nd cities gather culture by only attacking the capitol? probably the best bet.

Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking.

grahamiam said:

so, denyd, let's get this one rolling, eh, before you get to enjoy your vacation if you want, you can move the scout and then post a screenie we can pontificate on, or you can make the executive decision based on what you see

Click to expand...

I agree totally. Kick it off Denyd. After the scout move make a judgement call on if we need more discusion. Good luck.

OK - I got it and will be playing tonight - I'll check back for any more ideas before starting - I play 20 (until 3000 BC) right?

Any thoughts on research path?

First build is a scout, second is a barracks.

denyd said:

OK - I got it and will be playing tonight - I'll check back for any more ideas before starting - I play 20 (until 3000 BC) right?

Click to expand...

Right.

denyd said:

Any thoughts on research path?

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Knew we forgot to discuss something.

Here are the choices I see.
1. Iron Working - Build a bunch of warriors and hope to be able to colonize iron.
2. Wheel - Hope to colonize horses
3. Warrior Code - Get some Archers to go with our Warriors.
4, Go for Alphabet -> Writing in hopes of trading for the military techs we need.
5. Go for CB -> Monarchy
Has anyone checked the list of opponents? I will when I get home from work, but I don't know if it will be before Denyd starts.

I lean towards #3 since it is the only guarenteed upgrade to our military and we want to wage a war before 2000BC if possible to get some more cities.

denyd said:

First build is a scout, second is a barracks.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

WC seems fine, but 1st tech research really depends on the Civ's we're playing against. if 3 of them already have WC, then it makes no sense to research it 1st. imho, go for something that no-one else has and then trade up or research nothing and buy all the 1st tier tech's, saving research for the 2nd tier. being regent, i'd opt for researching something no one has yet.

I vote for warrior code unless more than one other civ starts with it. My next choice would be the wheel, with the same restriction. (Does anybody besides Japan start with the wheel?)

I think we need to find a reasonably good spot for our first city. When we capture a city, I want us to have 2 good cities, not one. I'm willing to wander quite a bit to get it.

Scout and then barracks sounds good.

With regard to the tundra at the equator, nothing says we are looking at the equator. Perhaps this is a view centered at one of the poles, or somewhere near it. Notice mad-bax's "The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration" statement.

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 4000 BC – There are 15 opponents and Japan is one of them – Ivan SE-SE to mountain and spots a wheat and a BG – that’s where we’ll put Moscow – Settler & Anna (worker) SE

Turn 1 – 3950 BC – Settler S – Anna E – Ivan SE-E spots mountains & hills (iron?)

Turn 2 – 3900 BC – Settler S finds a lake – Anna S – Ivan NE-NE finds a hut and since we can’t get a settler from a hut we’ll pop it

Turn 3 – 3850 BC – Settler & Anna reach wheat – Ivan pops hut for pottery

Turn 4 – 3800 BC – Ivan heading north – Anna starts to irrigate wheat – Settler reaches spot – will have 2 BG & 1 Wheat in initial terrain, is on a river and has ocean available

Turn 5 – 3750 BC – Ivan heading N along the coast finds shells & game – Settler founds Moscow starts scout – Moscow will get a game & fish once expansion occurs – begin research on The Wheel

Turn 6 – 3700 BC – Ivan spots another hut

Turn 7 – 3650 BC – Ivan pops hut for a worker – Olga (worker) heads to Moscow – Anna completes irrigation

Turn 8 – 3600 BC – Anna starts road – Ivan heading NW – Olga heading home

Turn 9 – 3550 BC – Ivan finds another coast and Olga heading home – Moscow builds scout starts a barracks (Mmed for growth)

Turn 10 – 3500 BC – Igor (scout) heading SW spots a furs (colony soon) – Ivan spots another hut – Anna completes road

Turn 11 – 3450 BC – Anna moves to BG – Igor spots a hut – Olga heading to join Anna – Ivan pops a hut for a map

Turn 12 – 3400 BC – Anna starts mine – Olga almost there – Igor pops hut for Ceremonial Burial – Ivan may have found top of island – Moscow now size 2

Turn 13 – 3350 BC – Olga joins Anna – Ivan SW – Igor SW

Turn 14 – 3300 BC – Olga starts to mine – Igor roaming SW – Ivan checking out the NW – Moscow culture expansion

Turn 15 – 3250 BC – Igor confirms SW corner – Anna & Olga complete mine

Turn 16 – 3200 BC – Anna & Olga start road – Ivan finds another hut – Igor heading to checkout SE

Turn 17 – 3150 BC – Ivan approaches hut – Ivan heading to SE – Anna & Olga complete road – Moscow grows to size 3

Turn 18 – 3100 BC – Anna & Olga move to other BG – Ivan pops hut for Masonry – Igor moving to SE – Increase luxury rate to 10% (slows The Wheel by a turn)

Turn 19 – 3050 BC – Anna & Olga start mine – Igor heading to SE – Ivan trying to get home

Turn 20 – 3000 BC – Ivan & Igor moving in known lands

After action report: Moscow will grow in 3 and complete the barracks in 3 (suggest a worker to create furs colony next) – There is still a possible connection to the SE & NE to another tribe, but we might be alone – We should research writing and then Map Making to get off this island – Igor should continue to scout SE and Ivan should check out the western coast – Once Anna & Olga complete the mine, they should build a road to the furs

what's this? Antarctica or Greenland? very interesting. i got it. will play and post tonight.

Well, this is interesting. We got a reasonable site for Moscow, with nothing else nearby. I guess this is to help encourage us to stick to one city.

Nice hut-popping Denyd. I wonder if the rules for popping workers from huts are the same as popping a settler usually (no settler around).

I agree on researching writing and map making, but I'm going to hope there is a land connection to some other civs. I'm not good at war-making, and I don't use ships well. If even our first wars have to be conducted over water, with only one city to supply the troops, I'm going to be very uncomfortable.

I don't know if it is worth colonizing the furs. We'll get them by expansion fairly soon; we're on regent, so happiness isn't as big a problem; and we'll have plenty of troops around until we find another civ/get off our island. To some extent I think it depends on what we find before we have to decide for sure, but I'm not really eager for luxes right now.

You will pop eqWorkers from huts. Since you cannot build eqWorkers there is no way to prevent them being popped AFAIK. I've tried.