space wins advise

soul_warrior

Termite!
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i have never won a space race victory (as i usually go for a military win)
i have had it! ;D
so now im trying to go out to space.
any advise?
im a mostly monarch player these days.
got a save up here, playing as Inca.
my intial thoughts were, get a 20 city empire, hole up, shoot for the stars.
but what is the best way?
what are the wonders/techs i would need (but i prefer a no wonder win)?
cheers, and happy flying....
 
Your game has the following phases:
-expand
-tech
-build space ship

Expand
a 20 city empire sounds good to me.
It is priority to get these asap. The first 3000 years, build nothing but settlers, workers and some granaries. Understand that food is the key these 3000 years. Food is worth many shields and even more gold. Therefore do not waste any on working 1 food tiles unless you have very good reasons to.
Build enough workers so that your citizens never need to use an unworked tile. Get to republic asap. If you do well, you should have your 20 cities shortly after 1000BC and have republic by then as well.
to stress a bit more: build enough workers, workers are key to succes.

tech fast
what you need to do is get your science up and have fast research, 4 turns per tech is prefered.

to do this:
-Have roads on every single tile to increase commerce
-Have Libraries and Banks in all your decent and semi decent cities. These buildings have your priority.
-Keep the lux slider as low as possible, therefore, trade for many lux resources (with the techs you are researching) and build marketplaces for even more happyness from them. If you have the opportunity to build a happyness wonder: bach's cathedral. Maybe also cathedrals and Sistines.

On this level, you don't need to expect much teching from the AI, so just make them pay all their gpt to you for the techs you make and use it to pay for your upkeeps while your science is at 100%.

Only if you have scientific AI's, gift them to the next age when you reach a new age and then trade for their free techs. Pay gpt if you have to, just make sure you get it back when you research the next tech yourself.

Beeline for Theory of evolution to get 2 free techs.

space build
Starting the industrial age, your empire should work perfectly, you should have your happiness needs covered and have universities everywhere. You should be tech leader and selling the tech's for gpt.

During the industrial age, prepare to get your empire up for production. Build railroads on every single tile you have and possibly replace some irrigation with mines for the effect of irrigation is now doubled by rr so you have a lot of surplus.
Build some extra workers and rejoin them after hospitals (if your rr network is finished)

Build the hoover dam and factories in each of your cities. These have priority



So thats rather simple and straightforward :)
 
I'm not sure if this helps but I just won a come from behind victory and won a space victory at emperor level.
There were three major things that helped me.

1. Vet Spies in communism. I've never needed to use them before but here I was stealing techs every 5 turns even when at war I stole 6 techs in 8 attempts.
It also helped knowing where the AI was in the space race and of course their military.

2. Uranium and aluminum. I took control of all the world's uranium (and in another space " W" game I pillaged the dominant AI's only alum.) . You can't build the parts without aluminum and uranium. There were 5 total uranium's on the map. The dominant AI had only one and it was underneath a city. I got them to declare war and I took the city. They were working on 7 parts and were able to complete those but stassis is further down the tech tree and they needed uranium and aluminum for completion.

3. Leaders. By having controlled war I was able to create leaders (around 5 leaders) to speed production. BTW that was with my measly 60 arty(!!!!), 10 bombers, 38 mostly elite tanks and 35 inf. against around their 24 MA and 210 MI. Arty and elite tanks made those leaders. I was able to finish the Apollo Program (small wonder needed) and the last space part by speeding production.

If you are going this route libraries, universities and research labs seem to be very important because you will be so research intensive.

Good luck. Hopefully you will not need to come from behind like I did.
Follow with your results.
 
Wackenopenair knows better than I!!!
His route is much more straightforward....maybe if you get in a pinch mine might help if things go astray.
 
Whomp said:
Wackenopenair knows better than I!!!
His route is much more straightforward....maybe if you get in a pinch mine might help if things go astray.

However, i have no space experience yet.
I am just starting my first space game in Cotm 08 now.
Have been thinking about it for a bit now.
(Gotm is more complicated though because i also worry about score from territory.And many choises are territory vs tech speed)

So hopefully we will soon see how i am gonna do in space ! :p
 
My approch for Space is the rush the tech pace in the AA, and not attack until I need the other cities for 4-turn research. Unforunately, in GOTM38, I attacked too late and got a crappy date.
 
One thing that i am thinking of for the gotm:

The total cost of all needed techs is x. The later you research them, the cheaper they actually get because you have more chance for help from the AI.
So 400 commerce in early game will have virtually no effect on your finish date as end techs cost 10k each. Even though it means 2 techs delay in AA.

The conquest part however gets more expensive as the game progresses. 400 early game shields is an army, 400 late game shields is almost insignificant.

Therefore, if you also want some gotm score, it seems best to first conquer much of the world and fully invest in science a bit later.
Of course, had i been iroquois the decision would be easy with this knowledge. But no, i now have cheap libraries and a useless UU that even disables a swordsmen upgrade.
So i have difficult decisions to cope with.
 
A full treatment of what is required for a space win could fill a book (2 if you add pictures ;) )

WackenOpenAir wrote many good things, but there are some things that I might do differently.

Space races are all about tech pace, and this is split into two phases. Trading to parity and Self Research.

Trading to parity covers the expansion phase at emperor and above. Until you have established a viable core at these levels it is not generally possible to out research the AI to any meaningful extent, and often the best policy is to just get to literature as quickly as you can. Unfortunately, literature is an optional tech and therefore will delay your finish date somewhat, but being able to build libraries earlier pays dividends in the longer term - you will be able to get to four turn research that much quicker. Literature is the only optional tech you should research, and that includes Chivalry and Military Tradition.

The number of cities required depends on map size. The bigger the map the more cities will be required. This is because tech costs vary with the size of the map. Generally however 20 cities is not even close to enough for a normal map. 40 may possibly be adequate and more is even better.

As a general rule (which I break frequently BTW) I will have at least one city that produces settlers, and another that produces workers. All cities that have minimal corruption get a library as soon as possible (to the extent that I pre-build for them), all cities that are 30 to 80% corrupt get couthouses. The power of courthouses in a space game cannot be over emphasised since you will have them for 250 turns. Once courthouses are built then libraries go in these cities, and after libraries - marketplaces. At about this time you will be changing government to Republic. It is the only viable government for Space races. Also construction will be around, so obtain it and pre-build universities with colloseums, enter the MA and max research to Education. Make sure you sell/gift all the opponent scientific civs into the MA first. You can then choose to research a tech other than the free ones they get. You can use republic to buy the free techs if necessary, otherwise just be patient and wait to learn a new tech, and trade for the free ones. Don't be afraid to gift the AI into a new era, even if you are giving them 10 techs. They get all these new techs at once and they start building all sorts of stupid stuff that will take them the rest of the game to complete. If you have played well, you should be able to research at about 6 turns per tech. You will keep the slider as high as you can for the rest of the game.

Once you are around 10 turns from republic you can then begin military expansion. Select around 6 cities that can make horsemen quickly with minimal shield waste, build barracks here and then units. You MUST go to war at this stage or earlier in vanilla or PTW (C3C it is a little less important but still by far the best policy). For vanilla and PTW you MUST get the Forbidden Palace, and for this you need to generate a leader. Horses are best for doing this because of their surviveability. It is not the end of the world if you have no horses as a sword rush can be performed. The mechanics for this is a little more complicated since you need to generate cash for warrior upgrades, but normally this can be done by selling republic around. Particularly you should sell republic to your chosen victim since he will immediately revolt and this will interrupt his production and put him in a war weariness producing government.
If you have an AA UU then now is a good time to trigger a GA. Otherwise wait for the start of the Industrial age as this is optimal.

Once you have your leader and selected a suitable site for the FP you may be able to switch some courhouses to libraries. They have the same shield cost so you can't lose anything. Continue slow steady military expansion with your limited troops. If war weariness affects you then trade for luxes if you can, otherwise sue for peace and declare on another Civ. You will be at war for the whole game! The Aim is to get to the domination limit and to eliminate all but the scientific civs from the game. The fewer opponents on the map, the cheaper techs are to research. VERY IMPORTANT!

Research the top half of the tech tree - no optional techs. By the time you get to the end of that branch you may find that you can trade for invention.
The reason that you research the top is that it takes longer, and so gives the AI more time to research something for you. Also it delays magnetism which is often useful for keeping the other civs isolated. You can gain contacts through suicide galleys - they can't, and so keeping magnetism back will allow you to broker better deals for longer. Once you begin to research the lower branch you should find yourself at a comfortable 4 turn/tech pace.

The last tech you will research will be metallurgy, at which point you will once again gift the scientific civs into the Industrial age, and set research to something other than the free ones. You have no brokering opportunities here, and so you will have to research new techs in order to trade. By this time most of your non corrupt cities will have a library, a marketplace a university and 5 cities will have banks. Banks do NOT help directly with research. They only multiply gold that is not already going into research, and since you are running max science will see very little benefit. However... you want 5 stock exchanges for Wall street and for that you need 5 banks.

At this time select your most commercially productive city - often the capital, but can be the FP city. You will be putting Copernicus and Newtons in this city. The increase in beaker output is significant and worth the shield outlay. Pre-build for Copernicus as soon as the city has a library, market and uni.

Steam is the next important tech. Because you have taken great care to produce 1.5 workers for every city in your possesion, you will now have improved all workable tiles, and prepositioned all your workers in two groups. 1 around the captal and one around the FP. Organising you workers into gangs of 6 native, or 12 slaves you will then methodically rail the core(s). Don't worry about connecting all your cities up, it will happen in good time. The key is not to improve tiles where the improvement will go to corruption - just yet. Improve all the flat land first. Then the hills, then the mountains, and finally the corrupt extremities of your 50+ city empire.

At this point you will once again be researching the top half of the tech tree, immediately pre-building factories in all productive cities with banks (and stock exchanges where banks already exist), and with suitable wonder builds or UU you will be in a GA right now. 4 turn research is often only possible early in the IA under a GA. And agian the reason for reasearching the top branch is to get a tech for free - either medicine or electricity or both. Research all of the techs you can before starting Scientific Method. Save flight till last, and whilst researching this start a couple of prebuilds. One will be for TOE and the other hoovers. Make sure there is fresh water in the 21 tile X for the hoover pre-build :p

Time the TOE completion to be on the turn you learn Electronics. Often you hear that taking Atomic Theory and Electronics as your Free Techs from TOE is best. It is not. It is just safest. I prefer a slightly riskier Radio and Fission. Fission is very expensive and could take 10 turns to research. The risk is that when you gift your scientific civ (currently researching weather patterns somewhere deep in the arctic ;) ) into the modern age he might get fission as his freebie. It's annoying and has happened to me.

Now you should select the cities that will build space ship parts. Space ship parts are not expensive particularly, but they should be micromanaged well to give to the option of speeding up and slowing down production to time builds.

Get your workers to irrigate everything you can now outside the radii of the half adozen cities that will build parts. You want a population explosion with lots of specialist scientists to give the extra little boost.

It would be wrong of me to suggest an optimum research path for the end game. My preference is to prebuild research labs everywhere and research ecology first and then to lazer. Theoretically it gives more time for rocketry (the cheapest modern age tech) to be researched. It has never worked for me however. You could research straight to miniturisation and build the internet for free labs everywhere.

So you pre-build apollo and all the parts and then press launch circa 1250AD give or take.

Obviously this is a very rough guide but it should give you enough information to develop your own strategy later.

The interesting point is that your finish date is pretty much determined by about turn 80 and whether or not you have managed to research literature, have half a dozen libraries and 15 cities at this time. )
 
mad-bax said:
Make sure there is fresh water in the 21 tile X for the hoover pre-build :p

There has to be a RIVER in the city radius.
A lake won't let you build the Hoover Dam.

Very large cities will also also help a lot to
research fast.(All 21 tiles for 1 city.)
 
Very large cities require wider spacing. This means more tiles in the core not being worked in the early game. This means it takes far longer to get research times down. OTOH ICS is very powerful in the beginning, but with so many tiles being under cities you get penalised with the advent of steam and railroads, and also nett rank corruption will be higher unless you employ the rank corruption bug. I would aim for 12 workable tiles per city so that every city can get to size 12 and be employed in working the land without the need for hospitals.

The early game is far more important in accelerating the power of your civilisation and I would certainly not advocate widely spaced cities where half of your low corruption tiles cannot be used for the first 5000 years.
 
You mentioned happiness wonders and buildings, but not the marketplace? Building marketplaces means if you've got an adequate supply of lux's, you'll almost never have to touch the lux slider. Also, it means you can go slightly higher on the science slider before you start losing money.

Completely unrelated note: I just realised that bombarding the AI's tiles hurts them a lot more on Diety than it does on lower levels, because just knocking out a couple shields can delay production of [whatever] by a turn or two.
 
I think I mentioned marketplaces at least four times. ;)

It is only with marketplaces and (say) five luxes that you can afford to have the science slider in the 70-100% range all of the time. This is in fact another arguement for smaller cities, since you need fewer luxes to keep your population happy. Markets should go in every town that needs them. This depends upon the level you are playing, the number of luxes that are available to you, the size of the town and the amount of uncorrupted commerce that is produced.

If you have 3 or more luxes (hooked up or by trade) and a town needs a specialist to keep it from rioting with the lux slider at 0% then a market is a high priority, second only to a library and a courthouse if corruption is more than about 20%. Having more luxes than necessary in peace will allow wars to be fought for longer without war weariness biting.

EDIT: I suppose I should mention leaders and wonders a little. Your strategy should not depend on getting leaders or wonders - except where the FP is concerned, but this is a property of the game mechanics and cannot be avoided except to some extent in C3C.

Leaders should be used mainly to build the wonders that will indirectly influence your finish date. The wonders that directly affect it should be built to ensure that you get them (Copernicus and Newtons). Top of my list would be Smiths Trading Company which will increase your nett income significantly. Can't really give a figure as it varies game by game and turn by turn. Mid industrial I guess around 200gpt. Wall street gives another 50gpt if you keep your bank balance above 1000. The pyramids are the most powerful wonder in the game, but should not be built. If you cannot get a second leader in time and they are built on your continent then it shapes your military strategy. :)

The great library should be avoided at all costs since you will research directly through Education and you will probably not get a single tech that you couldn not get otherwise at zero cost.

The UN should not be built. Played properly, your reputation should be more or less in tact or there should be no other Civ capable of completing in time. Use this wonder as a pre-build for one of the more expensive parts. A leader generated at this time should be saved for the internet which would only be 8 turns away or even at a push the Apollo program itself. There is not another wonder worth a carrot IMO and I include Leos and Bachs.


Of the optional techs that you will not research, the most useful is Economics. Not just because of Smiths, but because it doubles the gold yield of cities producing wealth. 1 for 4 shields instead of 1 for 8. Note that once each city is optimally improved it can be switched to Wealth. Even a 1 shield hell hole will add 1 gpt from producing wealth, and you may have a dozen or so other cities producing up to 80spt each that are not needed for space part production that can be switched to wealth, adding 200gpt to your income. Other things you can do to wring the last red cent out of your economy include selling all non-value added buildings. Barracks, temples etc.
If you capture cities with buildings in them, sell the buildings. A bank in a completely corrupt city will contribute nothing to your economy, but will drain 1gpt from it for upkeep. Disband enough units so that your unit costs are zero. If you are at war still in the end game with tanks and MA (unlikely) then it is possible to generate 2 or 3 leaders every turn. Build armies with them and leave them empty. You can use them as a shield store. Later you can disband them into cities to short rush research labs.
 
Very good points mad-bax.
For C3C, things are a little bit different, though.

First:
There is not another wonder worth a carrot IMO and I include Leos and Bachs.
The Colossus is. And, any acnient wonder, especially ToA; the AI cannot hold pace when you permanently give them free techs, and you benefit a lot from the Temples. At this time, the AI usually didn't manage to connct their Luxes, and ofte lack Harbors, so you do have happiness problems exactly around the time ToA works. And some culture flips are nice.
Plus, any ancient wonder will give you tourist bonus, and that is really helpful.
Of course, building ancient wonders isn't worth it - but with a SCI Civ in C3C, you always have a chance for a SGL.
Also, SEA Civs are a good choice - they get insane commerce from coastal cities, especially the cheap ComDocks are great.
A good strategy when you play a SCI Civ and there are several more SCI Civs in the game is the "Era-advance slingshot"; once you finish an era, enter F4 via The Big Picture, and gift the other SCI Civs into the next era. Get all 1st tier techs. Republic+Literature and some gold works for MA, and for IA there are usually some Civs lacking Demo (trade for it, of course). That way, you will get a second tier tech for free; anything but Ironclads is worth it. Even Chivalry; Knights Templar is a good wonder here, your cities are busy enough with Scientific buildings, a Crusader every 5 turns is a great help. Communism is good since you can gift that to all AIs; that way, they'll be done with the stupid Nationalism path sooner, so they can contribute a bit for research during IA as well (Refining, Cooperation mostly).
 
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