COTM 09 Spoiler 2: Middle Ages or End of Game

Renata

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COTM 09 Spoiler 2: Middle Ages or End of Game

To qualify for this spoiler, you must:
  • have reached the industrial ages, or submitted your completed game;
  • have a map of all landmasses;
  • have contact with all seven AI civilizations (or know where they died).

The usual rules apply here: no discussing of industrial age happenings unless those happenings cover only a few turns, and absolutely no posting of spoilers or pictures that would reveal the location of industrial age resources.

So, if you're a warmonger, how did you keep yourself amused during the long wait for navigation? What, if anything, did you do to deal with your lack of certain critical resources? And most important -- how much damage could you still do with your Berserks after such a long delay?

If you went for a non-military win, you had your work cut out for you, too -- how did you deal with the disadvantages of the starting island?
 
Well, well I go to preparing my post now.
Shortly I can say that I win by Domination (I was back) in 510AD.
Hey, Aeson, are you finished in BC? :rolleyes:
 
Predator
swordsman_small.gif

Ancient Age

The start of the middle ages in 490BC was quite bad. I gifted babylon and they got feudalism, which is the worst that can happen.
No chance to trade, so I researched engineering.
In 450BC I started the first war on the other continent. Dutch and us versus Hittites, Zulus and Celts.
In 330BC the mausoleum completed, giving us a golden age.
When I got engineering in 270BC Hammi still wanted over 100gpt on top of engineering and literature.
I decided to give it and shoot my reputation right away by declaring war immediately.
I wanted Babs to have engineering so they could research invention for me, but didn't want to give it for nothing.
I also DoWed America and allied Dutch and Chinese against everybody. From now on I kept everybody in some war.
The beeline to navigation took until 390AD.
I could trade for invention and chivalry in the meantime and then traded for maps and gunpowder in this turn.
I also traded iron from Hittites to upgrade 8 horses to knights, while 10 ancient cavs together with 2 berserks set sail towards the continent.
In 420AD I declared on Hittites and soon captured my own sources of iron and saltpeter.
No leader showed up in this war and the next, so I didn't build a new palace in Hittiteland, which I would have done otherwise. So I just kept the cities and rushed some units near the front.

In 520AD I started war on dutch, while still hunting down the last Hittites.
Hittites where out in 580AD, Dutch in 590AD.
klarius_c9_3.jpg

Note that I settled also a city near China as launch point for the final two prong campaign.

The arrival of military tradition in 610AD coincided nicely with the start of the Babylonian war.
In this war I finally got a leader, which formed an cavalry army.
Babylon was out by 650AD and I had already started on China, taking Beijing.
klarius_c9_4.jpg


In 670AD war was brought to the Zulu.
China and Zulu left the scene 710AD and 720AD.
klarius_c9_5.jpg


Celts declared on me already 550AD and I was enjoying war happiness up to now. I steamrolled them by 750AD.
Then a final RoP rape on America (failed annihilating them by one lousy redlined musket in 780AD) and conquest victory in 800AD.
klarius_c9_7.jpg


The two berserks I built didn't do much (probably two fights each), but that's just because I fought with fast land units mainly and used the ships for reinforcements from the home island.
They were by no means outdated as the best defenders were muskets and not even many.
As usual for me, I had an overkill number of cavs in the end for a monarch game, but I just like it that way. :D
 
Predator - Barbs fixed

Early on I saw this map as a perfect Temple of Artemis domination map. ToA seems overpowered in Conquests when you have a UU that appears before Education and can be ridden for a Dom victory. Having expanded borders on every captured town leads to 66% land very quickly.

Berserkers is the strongest UU before Education so they fit this perfectly. Plus having a 80% water map with a single continent other then the starting location, shaped like a big horseshoe to maximize coastal towns, well, how could I try anything else? However, this forced me into a suicide chain of galleys for troop movement, since I could not get to Navigation for safe passage across the wide, wide ocean. (never less then 12 tiles).

Once I committed to suicide galleys chains, then I was also forced into building the Great Lighthouse. It would allow sea movement and further reduce the risk of losing galleys in the ocean. The distance across the Ocean, even with the GL, forced me into 2 suicide galleys every turn at a minimum. :cool:

The Temple of Zeus was another obvious AA build, since it would give me improved mobile units without having to get Chivalry. The added bonus was that it would trigger my GA. The plan was to build GL first to make sure I got it, then build ToZ timed to start around entering MA, so I would get a big research boost to Invention and Bezerkers.

Since my primary goal was capturing the town with the Temple of Artemitis on the main continent, I waited until it was built before I decided on the direction of approach for the attack. It seemed lucky that it was the Babs who built it, although it they did build it inland which forced some Berserkers out of their boats. Attacking the round end of the horseshoe seemed like the right approach, although in retrospect, better access to the inner sea would have speed up my conquest.

I completed the ToZ around 100bc and started my GA. In what might be the most boring use of GA shields ever, I used the 30/turn from Trondheim to mostly build Galleys, one per turn. ;)

Invention was discovered in 320AD. I pushed Trondheim up to size 10, 24 shields per turn and squeezed out a Berserker every 3 turns. The normal build in the large cities was Berserkers and the normal build in all the small costal cities was Galleys for the rest of the game. Research was shut off and all production went to unit support and the odd rushing of units or improvements.

I had launched a small pre-invasion before I discovered Invention and moved some AC and Archers across the pond next to the Zulu. They were weak, plus they were between the northern and southern Bab settlements. I founded a town in 190AD on the coast and declared war on the Zulu around 250AD a few turns before I discovered Invention and got my first Beserker upgrades.

After the Zulu fell, I divided my forces and sent some north to take out the 3 Bab towns to the north and some South to take out their capital and capture the ToA.

After the Babs fell, the southern forces attacked the Dutch and their 4 defense Swiss mercs. They had built both the Pyramids and Sun Tzu's in a coastal town, so I swarmed it with Berserkers and it fell. However, the inland Dutch towns, especially on hills proved to be too difficult. I decided to make peace and bypass them.

The Northern force was surprise attacked by the Celts, so I allied the Americans against them, and then proceeded to start taking out the Celts. This force was lucky and created two GL which I formed into armies. Due to my low number of units, one army had 2 AC and the other army had 2 Berserkers. This force proceeded clockwise through the Celts. I left the weak Americans alone until the final turn when I doubled back a few berserkers and put myself over 66% of the land.

The Southern force jumped over the Dutch and attacked the Hittites. At this point, I was chaining Berserkers from Bergen on my east coast across to the main continent, down south past the Babs lands, the Dutch lands and onto the Hittites. I was actually moving Berserkers and AC 3/4ths of the way around the map and could have chained them all the way back to my west coast with 2 more suicide galleys on that side. I never really made the switch over to a western suicide direction of travel until the last few turns because I had the Galleys deployed every 5 tiles and it took an extra 4 or so new galleys to move over to the west coast and start going that way.

For many, many of the turns during the conquest, I could not move troops because I had lost a galley in my suicide chain. Each time this happened I moved more galleys out to take their place and waited until next turn. I attempted to improve my through put with two sets of 2 galleys, but the losses also increased, so I was limited to moving only 2 units from my homelands the other continent for nearly the entire war.

Near the end, my cash bonus from captured cities eliminated the costs of unit support, so I could rush some Knights and a few Berserkers on the main continent. Having barracks in every city helped. From 320AD to 700AD I never had more the 20 Berserkers and 5 AC and 2 armies in the field.

Domination achieved in 710AD.

Here is the conquest progression

NPStan
 

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OPEN - Barbs fixed

Babs got Feudalism in my game too.

190 BC Engineering

290 BC Great Lighthouse

90 AD Zulu demand Engineering, DOW.

90 AD Monotheism, Feudalism (from Celts)

290 AD Theology

370 AD Education

450 AD Astronomy

480 AD Peace Zulu for Theology, Buy invention for Education and gpt. Sell
Theology and Education to America killing their Great Library.

500 AD Sun Tzu and Golden Age

560 AD Gunpowder

610 AD Chemistry

660 AD Metallurgy

680 AD Start first real war on Hittites (phony war with America and Zulu about to turn real), grabbing a few cities and a saltpeter which will be hooked up shortly. I've got a large group of Berserks, but I've been building horses at home waiting for the saltpeter.

690 AD GA ends

730 AD Learn Military Tradition, turn off research for good.

790AD Finally kill off the Hittites.

840AD Finish Netherlands.

890AD Finish Babylonians.

1000AD Finish America.

1050AD Finish Celts.

1080AD Domination win with 2 Chinese cities left, would have been destroyed for Conquest that turn. Not sure how much better my score would have been with Conquest victory. I'll have to check it out when the calculator is available for this game.

I had 4 leaders this game, first made a Berserk army, the other 3 made cav armies. Some mistakes I made were:

-Building too many Berserks. Should have spent my money on horses to upgrade.
-Wasting an army on Berserks. By the middle of the conquest they were nearly useless (too slow).
-Not filling out my island fast enough. I saved some of the northern cities until I could clear the jungle. Should have settled them much sooner and dealt with it. Could have just built workers with them.
-Not doing a 2-pronged attack like klarius (and I'm sure others).
-Probably should have made sure I didn't hit Domination before finishing Chinese.
 
Open, barbs fixed.

[Mistakes]

My first mistake was to rely a bit too much on the strategic options detailed on the pre-game thread. Having little experience of the Vikings, I didn't know the power of the Berserker. Moreover, I have built the SoZ quite early, not changing my plans as I saw that the other continent was quite far away. I didn't want to gamble suicide transportation, and I oriented my science path too late towards navigation (I researched myself Feudalism, Engineering and Invention... so stupid).
So I was stuck in my continent waiting for Navigation to come, accumulating useless forces that were loosing their relative power advantage.
I also made a mistake during exploration : I thought I had fully explored the borders of the second continent, but in fact I didn't see the entrance on the left and thought that what was actually a crescent was a full circle, making me think that my opponents would get much more powerful than I coud be (even though in the power graph they didn't seem quite that big).

[Consequences in strategy]
My mistake on exploration made me consider the situation : we are going quite fast in science (entered the IA before 1300, which is rather unusual to me), I am at war with the Hittites since nearly the beginning of the game, being at peace with the other and having MA with them, have many luxuries to trade, am very isolated. This looked like great conditions for a rather easy diplomatic victory. Therefore I decided to aim for diplomatic victory, trying to accelerate my pace of research to get a good time for it (I know that in monarch [this is the level I usually win at] I can't really rely on the IA to get fast science). I needed more cities, and decided to chop the head of the Hittites asap. They were the biggest civ on earth, but I was confident on my military and diplomatic skill (not very developped, but probably sufficient).

[Final Result]
The war on Hittites went well, I took all of their cities in just a few turns as soon as I discovered Navigation. Then I just went science crazy, selling my goods to most of the other civs to get their gold to finance my research.
Then I saw the Chinese as a good opportunity to take some more cities, their the biggest threat after me and are quite isolated. I declared on them just a little too late, they have the time to get infantry and the war doesn't move too much although I secured MA with every other civs. I make peace and wait for the UN.
Finally I declare war on the Chinese just 10 turns before the UN is built, and just bomb them with allies. Success, I take quite a few cities and when the vote is held, everyone votes for me vs the Chinese. I think I could have also won a conquest victory, but I may go for an award in my first COTM win ! (lowest base score victory ?) :king:
 
PREDATOR

Ancient Age

I entered in MA in 450BC with 12 cities (+3 in plan) and 47 pop. As I already wrote I gift Babylon to MA and traded Monotheism from him. My later plan was go to Navigation, increase the power of my city by libraries and aqueducts, build FP and SoZ for triggering GA then go to war.

In the beginning of MA I started research Theology and got it in 270BC (9 turns). FP was built in 290BC in Reykjavik but I haven’t got a big income from it. After that I started SoZ in Reykjavik and skip aqueduct and library for it. In 70BC I discovered Education (10 turns) , in 110AD Astronomy (9 turns) and in 230AD Navigation (6 turns). In 70AD I built SoZ and it’s increased my science very well.

In the early AD I sold Republic to several civs (they have enough time to reach it itself) and some turns before Navigation I traded for Feudalism. So I started Chivalry after Navy and got it in 280AD (4 turns). After that I stopped research forever. I haven’t Iron on my island but it wasn’t matter because at first I traded Furs and Iron from Hittites and at second my first target was Zulu who have both Iron and horse very close. I have very good relationship with AI and even traded some gpt.

From start of AD I change my cities production to barracks then to horsemen. I never built Marketplaces and Universities. When Navigation was discovered I began to transfer my horsemen and several Ancient Cavalries to the Zulu territory by 6 Caravels. In 300AD I have enough force for starting war (19 Horsemen and 2 Ancient Cavalries on the place and several on the way). At this moment I resigned RoP with everybody and have 20 turns of free passage.

At first attack I captured 3 Zulu’s cities and got control on Iron, Horse and Incense. Zimbabwe has barracks so I have 11 active Knights on the next turn. 9 were upgraded and 2 other arrived from homeland (thanks to ship chaining). This upgrade was very useful because when some unit is upgraded it gets all health point. Such way I repaired several horsemen from red line to full strength veteran Knights immediately. At the end of 310AD I already have 2 elite Knights, Horsemen and Ancient Cavalry so with some luck I got 1-st GL in 320AD. And my first Knights Army stayed in the head of Vikings iron wave. I must note in this game elite units and GLs appeared as mushrooms after the rain. In 20 turns of non-stop war I got 8 GL (7 armies and Heroic Epic). :)

I rushed harbor in one Zulu’s city and have 5 luxuries for my people. After Zulus I captured Americans by 1 turn (2 cities). At this moment Americans found new city on the edge China’s territory and stayed there to the end of game.

Further I fought in 2 fronts: one half of my units go to NE (Celts, start in 400AD) and other SE (Babylon, start in 370AD). In 370AD I have 3 Armies and 30 Knights. Regardless of the war I traded with Hittites 75 gpt for Astronomy so my income was well.

I haven’t serious problem with wars. Most my battles were against spearmen and my loss were too small. I took big cities with Armies and towns with ordinary Knights. My war speed decreased only when I went to China because there aren’t roads between Celts and China.

Before I started war against Babylon I trade Engineering from him and after that was crossing the rivers without problem. I never got Berserks and not sorry about it.

As you understand I use RoP abuse tactics in all wars. In captured cities I rushed Temples (not in all) for gain culture so I haven’t absolute happiness for my people and must collect cash. In 490AD I rushed several settlers for additional cities in 500AD and got Domination victory in 510AD.
 

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@Klarius and StanNP

Am I the only one here who stupidly made my ships to sail everywhere in search of some decent island territory? Sure didn't find any.
 
StanNP said:
Early on I saw this map as a perfect Temple of Artemis domination map. ToA seems overpowered in Conquests when you have a UU that appears before Education and can be ridden for a Dom victory. Having expanded borders on every captured town leads to 66% land very quickly.

Berserkers is the strongest UU before Education so they fit this perfectly. Plus having a 80% water map with a single continent other then the starting location, shaped like a big horseshoe to maximize coastal towns, well, how could I try anything else? However, this forced me into a suicide chain of galleys for troop movement, since I could not get to Navigation for safe passage across the wide, wide ocean. (never less then 12 tiles).

Very interesting decision, StanNP! It was very risky but you did it. :goodjob:
 
MeteorPunch said:
@Klarius and StanNP

Am I the only one here who stupidly made my ships to sail everywhere in search of some decent island territory? Sure didn't find any.
Well, why should one search islands?
That there is nothing, which will be linked to to the core before navigation was clear quite early.
After navigation there is a whole continent to be had. :D
 
klarius said:
Well, why should one search islands?
That there is nothing, which will be linked to to the core before navigation was clear quite early.
After navigation there is a whole continent to be had. :D

Iron. mmm....I thought there might be a little island surprise somewhere :(
 
I can only say I find it disgusting to see how extensively blatant exploits like RoP-Rapes and Shipchaining seemed to be used in such a gamebreaking way. No personal insult, I know they are allowed, but I can only hope this will be changed after this CotM.
I prolly fail to see why Aeson's "Palace Lift" method should be more cheating in any way. It obviously wasn't possible to reach results anywhere near those using the exploits with not such a wicked understanding of cheating.

Just my 0.02€.
 
To bad I've already played this game to prove a different point Doc.

RoP rape and ship chaining offer minimal gains with increase risks/costs. Suicide ship chaining is very inefficient and only in the most extreme situations will it break even with more conventional crossings. Regular ship chaining requires more ships to be built and supported or to have a less overwhelming initial landing.

RoP rape carries the diplomatic hit but that isn't the only cost/risk involved. To use it effectively you have to split up your forces into smaller groups, send some of those groups past targets that could have been hit earlier with more force, and because the groups are smaller, the odds are greater that a particular target will fail to be taken, leaving that portion of your attack force exposed, damaged, and in enemy territory. The only way to safely compensate for this is to wait to attack until you have more units than necessary to have started otherwise. Generally ROP rape is only going to speed things up in rough terrain where the AI has a good road network. In some cases (ie. mobile units, tech superiority, nice flat land) it will slow things down, and sometimes can cause disaster (failing to take multiple targets and losing a good portion of your forces to counterattacks).

Domination/Conquest on this map in the timeframes mentioned here so far are possible without these exploits (or any disallowed ones). You're free to like them or not, but they aren't gamebreaking.

I prolly fail to see why Aeson's "Palace Lift" method should be more cheating in any way.

It shouldn't, because cheating means to break the rules.

Using an exploit allowed by the rules is obviously not cheating regardless of whether you think it should be allowed or not.

The reason there is no difference in this case was I wasn't cheating either. The issue had been brought up to the staff and my playing this game was part of the process of determining whether it should be allowed or not.

So you're bringing up the issue of cheating at all is completely irrellevent in this case.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
It obviously wasn't possible to reach results anywhere near those using the exploits with not such a wicked understanding of cheating.
No personnel offence taken Doc, I understand your perspective on what should and should not be allowed. It is hard to reconcile that things you feel are wrong are specifically allowed by the rules.

I chose to not ROP in my game, because I don't like it. But in my defense, ship-chaining is the *only* CIV skill I had before I started playing GOTM. Everything else I learned here. :cool:

I think Dynamic could have easily achieved a 600-700ad domination without using ROP. I agree my game was only possible using ship-chaining.

StanNP
 
open

290bc we're the first to enter the MA

230bc America DoW on us (MA with Celts)
ibt: We complete the Great Library

90bc ibt: learn Republic vis Great library and revolt (6 turns)

70ad peace treaties with everyone, netting us some gold

910ad Dow on Hitties and capture Harran with Zerk (after researching Navigation). I was already a couple turns into GA at this point by building Magellan's.

970ad get a MGL, but fail to take Hattusas. Bring reinforcements. Leave leader in stack to rush Palace once Hattusas is captured.

980ad failed to take Hattusas again, but have killed all the muskets and they don't have any more salt :) .

990ad Capture Hattusas, use leader to rush palace, then attack with elite and get another MGL which is used to make an army :D

1040 Destroyed the Hittites. Build up new core as I pretty much decimated the army I had destroying the Hittites. [edit] I had built both SoZ and KT and they made up most of my army when attacking the Hittites.[/edit]

1170 we DoW on Dutch
1200 got my 3rd MGL (army)
ibt: Enter IA

1250 got my 4th MGL (army)
1270 Dutch are Destroyed

1315 DoW on Babylon and lost my AC army :(
1325 Babylon is Destroyed

1350 Dow on Zulu
1355 Dow on china and sign MA with Celts vs China to keep them from retaking the towns they had on the west side of the Celt lands

1375 DoW on America

1400 finish off America, ibt: DoW on Celts when they demanded we remove our troops as we're heading towards China.

1425 peace with China due to WW.

1440 ibt: I lost my 2 remaining healing armies to the first flip of the game :(

1445 another celt city flipped :mad:

1460 domination victory.
 
Dynamic said:
Well, well I go to preparing my post now.
Shortly I can say that I win by Domination (I was back) in 510AD.
Hey, Aeson, are you finished in BC? :rolleyes:

No. It should be possible to come close to such a finish, but I was playing to get through the game ASAP, using governors and even automated Workers. Also it was my first try ever with a Palace Jump/Teleportation. So I made a lot of mistakes in planning as well as execution.

I made the jump in 110BC, having had my gold run out (15g, -32gpt). I had 28 Horsemen, 4 Settlers, 12 Workers, 4 Slaves, and 2 Archers to send across. It would have been better to make the jump earlier. The problem wasn't number of units in the upcoming conquest phase, but just movement/time.

I disbanded the capitol and the Palace jumped to Stavenger on the continent. I built a new city at the point all the rest of the units could make it to (2 of the Settlers couldn't make it to an already build city, so -1 Settler for the city and +1 Settler teleported seemed like a good deal) moved the units in, then gifted the city to China. I also went into Anarchy, 8 turns. If I had been in Monarchy or just stayed in Despotism this wouldn't have been necessary. It would have been better to have never switched to Republic at all.

I had already conquered 2 Babylonian and 1 Dutch town with Spears/Archers rushed with gold. I had 8 Archers (3 Elite) and 3 Spears. 4 towns on the continent, and everything back home was supporting Tax Collectors as best they could.

The Dutch were my first target, as Babylon had gotten into the Middle Ages, and I didn't want to end up fighting Swiss Mercs. I had traded Republic for Currency and Construction. My Spear/Archer stack took Amsterdam in 90BC. By 10 BC I had taken all but 2 Dutch towns, including their Iron, and I made peace with them for their town they had built up on the other end of the C. I had to give this city to the Zulu because I was at war with the Celts and they had troops threatening it a few turns later. Figured it would be an easy target if/when I got there as the Zulu couldn't get any use out of it. I had 14 towns on the continent at this point, in Monarchy my economy would have been stronger than it had been before the jump and revolution. (This is why I think I would have been best to go much earlier and never enter Republic.)

I consolidated my forces and started building Swords. In 110AD I attacked the Hittites with my Horsemen. They had build ToA, and so it would really help to get it first to avoid flipping and expand borders. I captured their capitol with ToA in 110AD. Technically this was an ROP rape as I had moved next to their city, made peace with them without thinking, and then had to sign an ROP to keep my troops in place.

My Swords were now ready to hit Babylon, and I had moved into position in 110AD with a stack of Swords, Archers, and Spears. Babylon fell in 130AD and the last Babylon city in the neighborhood fell in 230AD. It took until 260AD to eliminate the Hittites, and I got my first Leader at that point too. It would be my only one even though I had roughly 50 Elite victories (and almost as many Elite losses :( ). I ran the MGL up to Babylon and made a Sword Army there. Most of my remaining Horsemen that way as well. There was still a single Dutch city on the end of the C, but I could deal with it later with locally produced units. I switched from Swords to mostly building Horsemen now as I figured most new Swords would never be able to see action due to movement limitations. Only cities near the front stayed on Swords.

As I worked my way through the jungle to hit the Zulu, the Zulu beat me to the punch and allied with the Americans against me. I thanked them for the happiness boost, but it did slow things down a bit as I had to fight the American and Zulu forces in slow terrain just to get to the Zulu borders. I made peace with everyone but the Zulu, then used AA techs and GPT deals to sign up every possible MA, promply breaking them to declare war and sign up new MA possibilities. This was might have made a difference if I had done it earlier, but I don't think it had any effect on the game at this point, other than to have a good chuckle at having everyone at war with everyone.

By 360AD I had conquered the 5 Zulu cities in the area. I traded Republic and Monarchy for Monotheism from the Celts(?), and Monarchy and Monotheism for Feudalism from the Babylonians. The only Pikes I ended up facing though were the Americans, and only 3 at that. So the 2-3 turns it took me to upgrade my Vet Swords to MDI were probably waste as at that point I had enough Swords that none of the cities could have stood up to them, and my Sword Army was able to deal with the Pikemen.

I sent a few Settlers across the C channel to settle in gaps, and also rushed a couple Settlers and a Galley back on the home island to claim the little island to the S. I took the last American city in 440AD. Took the last Babylonian city, last Dutch city, and a Celtic city in 490AD, triggering Domination in 500AD with a Jason of 11190.

----------------

Playing with the same attention (or rather lack thereof) to detail, I doubt I could have broken 1000AD using Navigation and Knights/Beserks/Cavalry. Shouldn't have scored more than 8000 Jason given what I put into it IMO. So that's why I say it made a difference of around 50 turns and 3k Jason. I'm not sure what the difference would be at the high end, but probably not quite as much. To have this type of game score and finish better than well-played games would definitely not be fair.
 
Aeson said:
RoP rape and ship chaining offer minimal gains with increase risks/costs
RoP rape - where is the risk? Civs you are at war with until they are gone won't offer you a RoP again?
Ship Chaining - Usually, this indeed is a minor issue. On this map, it allowed to ship over your UU half an era earlier. Risking a 30sp Galley is no big deal. Risking two 70sp Berserks is.
I will never agree with this ruling. Of course, 'Cheating' is to use something that isn't allowed, so obviously this ain't cheating. But I prolly fail to see why some exploits (and those are exploits, since they obviously weren't intended by the game design, otherwise the AI would use it as well) are fine, while others are not.
End of rant. ;)
Note this wouldn't have affected my game, since 20k takes far longer anyway.
 
Cultural buildings complete during this age are: Coliseum (450 AD) via cash and disbanded AC, Church (640 AD), Sistine Chapel (890 AD), University (910 AD), Bach's Cathedral (1150 AD), and Shakespeare (1300 AD) for the ultimate culture wonder.


530 AD allows us to meet China. 560 AD allows us to meet the Hittites. The Netherlands showed up the very next turn. 640 AD is the final contact with Babylon.

1260 AD sees the end of America.

The Middle Age end in 1310AD with Newton's as the next goal.

It sure be quite clear I am trying to 20K. I am not happy with the situation as I feel I should have snagged another wonder in the MA.
 
Entered the MA as late as 680AD. No real problem, since I had the Great Library, and I entered it with learning all 1st tier techs.
710AD Contact America and China, all Civs met.
720AD End of GA, learn Edu.
830AD First to learn Astro.
910AD Complete Sistine. Start prebuilding Magellan's, not that great for culture, but highly useful for this map.
1080AD Learn Navigation. Magellan's done. Start shiping over Berserks to attack Babylon in a two-prong attack.
1150AD Declare on Hammurabi; capture a city next to Saltpetre on the E coast (east of Hittites).
1160AD University of Trondheim.
1240AD 4 Berserks take a total of 2HP from two reg Babylonian Muskets in a town on Desert. Have to scrap my entire invasion plan, since I simply needed that one town. Not a single promotion so far. And, Babylon manages to buy in Hittites. Hammu is completely broke and pathetic, but Hittites are Tech leader...I have no idea what Hammu could have paid them. His territory map? Ridiculous. Hittites sign in everyone except my buddy Mao (who is the strongest Civ on the landmass).
1300AD I'm actually forced to a humilating peace treaty with Mursilis, paying 100gp. Not that he was a real threat, but any landing near Trondheim would have delayed a build, since the city can make only exactly 25spt.
1320AD Shakespeare's done.
1370AD Enter IA by trading for Metallurgy.

Bottom line: Middle Ages prolly sucked. Leader Fishing for 200 years, and I didn't get a single Elite Berserk. Couldn't even secure a beachhead (though I didn't really try that much, admittedly, after losing the former Babylonian Saltpetre city) until 1340 from 3CC Abe. The lack of territory didn't bother me that much, but the lack of Heroic Epic makes a fast 20k impossible. Won't be done before 1875 or so...

Cultural improvements so far in Trondheim (in order of construction):
Palace-Colossus-Temple-MoM-Colosseum-Great Library-Library-SoZ-Sistine-Cathedral-Magellan's-University-Shakespeare's. Pretty pathetic. The great wonders are ok, but the lack of small wonders hurts badly.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
RoP rape - where is the risk? Civs you are at war with until they are gone won't offer you a RoP again?

I listed the drawbacks of RoP rape. Read my post again.

Ship Chaining - Usually, this indeed is a minor issue. On this map, it allowed to ship over your UU half an era earlier. Risking a 30sp Galley is no big deal. Risking two 70sp Berserks is.

Risking several Galleys per turn is a huge risk. It's an inefficient method compared to a good tech rate to Navigation and shipping across safely.

I will never agree with this ruling. Of course, 'Cheating' is to use something that isn't allowed, so obviously this ain't cheating.

So don't use the term "cheating" to describe it. Is that so hard to understand?

But I prolly fail to see why some exploits (and those are exploits, since they obviously weren't intended by the game design, otherwise the AI would use it as well) are fine, while others are not.

You say they aren't intended, yet they have never been fixed even though they were known issues before the game was originally shipped. Breaking ROP has a diplomatic hit associated with it, meaning the design team had to be aware of it as a tactic before shipping the game. Yet the game shipped allowing breaking an ROP.

Ship chaining has been around since Civ I.

The assumption that everything intended makes it's way into the AI is ludicrous. The AI was intended to do a lot of things, but there are limits to how much it can do. The AI doesn't create Armies in C3C, so does that mean Armies are not intended to be built in C3C? The AI doesn't build Curraghs either, so it it an exploit to build a Curragh? (The examples can go on and on... in short, is it an exploit to beat the AI? Because doing so means you've done things the AI can't.)

There are two sides to these issues. You completely ignore any arguments that don't agree with your opinion, and that is why you can't see why the decisions have been made even though the answers have already been posted repeatedly.
 
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