Why I support China

I

(+) Influence

taiwans elite businessman
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
170
Why I support China- From a Taiwanese point of view

After reading the responds here on CFC, I've concluded that Western media portrays China in a very unfavorable way. There are a lot of misconceptions about China’s conditions, the Chinese Government, the China-Taiwan relationship and so on. I’m willing to bet that some here are absolutely shocked to hear a Taiwanese support the mainland government. If I’m correct, that shows the amount of antagonism western media has against the Chinese government because the reality is many; in fact a majority of Taiwanese citizens support my view. Does it represent every Taiwanese opinion? No, and nothing ever will. But does it represent a majority of the people? You bet it does.

I’ve provided several links to help with my argument:
From CIA factbook
Link 1 CHN, Link 2 US, Link 3 UK, Link 4 IND, Link 5 BRAZ, Link 6 SK

Link 7 Poverty Reduction
Link 8 2002 Top 10 Tech
Link 9 2003 Top 10 tech
Link 10 Super computer
Link 11 Tsunami

The most remarkable achievement is the Chinese government’s effort to lift poverty. When the Party was established, over 50% of the population was in poverty. Today it’s only 10% (Link 1). This is even lower than the United States (the wealthiest nation in the world), which is at 12%(link 2) Other top nations figures are UK 17%(link 3), India 25% (link 4), Brazil 22%(link 5), and South Korea 4% (link 6).
Here are some quotes from (link 7)
“rural poverty population has dropped from 250 million in 1978 to 28.2 million in 2002, decreasing by 88.7%. Poverty population has averagely decreased by 9.24 million
per year”
“China’s contributing rate to the world’s cause of poverty is 166.9%.”
But that is not the end. The CCP recently reaccelerated the poverty reduction. Some people believe that the goal of a nation is to deliver democracy. And while that is a noble goal, if you believe that is the more important of the two choices, you probably have never been starving.

Another reason is the willingness of the government to invest in science. While the 1960’s figure had China’s literacy rate at 58%, today it is at 90.9% with male literacy at 95.1% and female literacy at 86.5% (link 1). In 2002, China developed the first cancer detection biochip (link 8). In 2003, China developed it’s first super computer (link 9), and by 2004 was able to build a super computer that ranked 9th in the world (link 10). In 2003, China also created a super-hybrid rice to help end hunger (link 9). In 2003, China also became the third nation in the world ever to have gone to space.

China’s growth is seen as a very positive thing by its neighboring countries. It shows its leadership to poor countries when Wen Jiabao personally made a trip to the Tsunami struck areas (link 11). Most other leaders just simply express their condolences on the air.
....
 
Link 12 Taiwan anti-independence protest
Link 12 anti-independence protest

Now, about the government itself…Many people would like to portray China as a ruthless dictatorship that doesn’t want any democracy. This is simply not true. In the CCP’s plan for economic growth includes the establishment of local democracy. “ Fourthly,to create opportunities of democratic participation and advice expression for poor population.(link 7). Calling China a dictatorship is as insulting (if not more insulting to anyone who has been to China) as an American would feel to have Al-Jazeera calling American troops “BABY KILLERS”

I also see on this forum that many think of the China-Taiwan relationship as an evil dictator oppressing a democratic island. The situation is the same as it has always been, which is disagreements on terms of unification. While I feel proud of Taiwan and its democracy, I do not feel any different in my level of freedom when I’m in the Mainland. The reason is that the Taiwanese government is just like the Chinese government in the fact it’s a Meritocracy. Sure we elect some of our representatives, but by far a majority of Taiwanese offices are appointed.

I’m also willing to bet that western media is flooded with Taiwanese pro-Independence protesters. But what you’ll never see on your TV are the Taiwanese anti-Independence protests (link 12), which outnumbers any pro-Independence movement. There was almost unanimous outcry against A Bien’s proposal to take the word “China” from all commercial areas, because the people of Taiwan very much feel connected to the mainland. The Guo Ming Dang is the majority party in Taiwan and there is much desire to have eventual unification (and yes, the GMD which I’m part of were the ones fighting the Communist back in the civil war). The reunification stats are 75% pro-reunification with 15% wanting immediate reunification and the rest waiting for clear terms. 25% lean towards independence with 10% strong for it (most of them are youngsters 18-25).

The above is a brief:p description I can offer to debunk some of the myths about China. Maybe it’s your government who is the dictator for feeding you false information about China to serve their diabolical plan.:hmm: :p. Of course, you could easily refute that because you’ve lived there and can tell me how you feel about your government. Now I extend my hand to you and invite you to see Mainland China and Taiwan and decide for yourself if you want to continue your current belief regarding the CCP. I work for a travel agency and can set you up with a flight if you PM me. You may also PM me for any unanswered questions.
 
(+) Influence said:
The most remarkable achievement is the Chinese government’s effort to lift poverty. When the Party was established, over 50% of the population was in poverty. Today it’s only 10% (Link 1). This is even lower than the United States (the wealthiest nation in the world), which is at 12%(link 2) Other top nations figures are UK 17%(link 3), India 25% (link 4), Brazil 22%(link 5), and South Korea 4% (link 6).
Click to expand...

Poverty in China is a very different thing than in the USA.
 
You have to take into consideration that Poverty is measured in a relative manner. The averge poor person in the USA is way richer then the average non-poor chinese.

The chinese per capita income is below the latin-american average, and Latin America is one of the poorest continents in the world. In other words the chinese income is nothing to be proud of.

And if we want to look at standard of living instead of income, then let's analyse the UN's Human Development Index.
As you can see in this link, China is occupying the 104th position, below the likes of Sri Lanka, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Paraguay and Peru.

It's true that most westerners have a wrong idea of China, but that's because it's hard to even grasp the oppressing levels of poverty in China.
All we see on TV is modern cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai, and nothing about the rural ares where most of the people live.

Only 21% of the population owns a telephone line(22% has a cell phone, and my guess is it's basically the same people). This is just to show that the majority of the chinese have no access to no "modern" items whatsoever.

As for the Taiwan situation, it's my understanding that the majority of taiwanese want to keep the status-quo, as demonstrated by a number of polls.
That means that they want to remain de-facto independent, even though they consider the possibility of joining the mainland in the future.

I'm sure that if the mainland adopts some democratic reforms, many taiwaneses, if not most, will become favourable to an Union. But I can't see that happening while the CCP keeps its iron fist rule. China has indeed great potential, but there's still a loooong way to go and I'm afraid the CCP is not the right entity to lead the way.
 
Oh come on, one can blame many things on Mao (mainly total and utter incompetence in running the country and mass murder of political opponents) but genocide is not one of them. Genocide implies intent *based on race*. Considering the Communists and 99% of the dead in China were Han Chinese I find this ridiculous. Using "genocide" for a description of what happened is not only incorrect it is *insulting* to those who really were victims of genocide. I'm sure the Jews, Rwandans and other real victims of ethnic cleansing are very happy describing people who starved to death due to the incompetence of the government as genocide. It seriously cheapens what the Nazis did. What next - was the tsunami an act of genocide by the Indonesian government?

Most of the deaths were not intentional. Many were but this was a small fraction compared to the number that weren't. Also the ones which were intentional were political purges. There was *no mass slaughter* of villages or towns. Specific individuals were targetted in political purges. There was no indiscriminate slaughter. Most people who got into trouble politically were forced to do things like sweeping the street wearing embarassing billboards or things like that. Only a few in each district were actually executed and generally they were not of the common people. You know the most complaints my grandparents have of that time is not political persecution but the corruption of the local representatives of the Communist party.
 
wow. this has seriously chnaged my outlook on Taiwan and China. Thanl You. May i ask though, if so many people in Taiwan are opposed to independance, why do they elect people that seem to favor it? (isn't the leader of Taiwan about to write a new constitution?)
 
luiz said:
As for the Taiwan situation, it's my understanding that the majority of taiwanese want to keep the status-quo, as demonstrated by a number of polls.
That means that they want to remain de-facto independent, even though they consider the possibility of joining the mainland in the future.
Click to expand...

The whole "we will invade" thing works wonders for that status-quo. ;)
 
Some info for Tibet.

Tibet joined the Qing Empire in mid 1700's and remained an autonomous region. Dala and Banchan ruled, Qing officials just sat there and watched. They didn't want to break away until late 1800's when Qing was weak, bullied and the Tibetians were pursuaded by the British. After the 1911 revolution Tibet was still a part of Republic of China (modern day Taiwan is a remains of the ROC). After 1949 it still is part of China.

I'm not from mainland so I'm not 100% sure, but I think Tibet is still an autonomous region, and getting a lot of financial aid from CCP. After 1949 the standard of living of Tibetians actually improved a lot from the Qing and ROC times. I believe there are many Han Chinese who live much worse off than Tibetians (I'm not saying this is something to be proud of).

Agree Uiler. Genocide? Well, better save this word for the Holocaust.

About Taiwan president Chen Shui-bien, well I initially admired him because he rised from very humble beginnings. But now I think he is just another politician (actor).
 
lobster said:
Genocide? Well, better save this word for the Holocaust.
Click to expand...

Genocide is too harsh a word to describe the situation in Tibet, however since 1950, many Tibetans have emigrated in the wake of Chinese repression. Many have moved to India and Nepal, care to explain anyone, why would the "benevolent" Chinese cause so many to flee? Virtually all monasteries are destroyed by the Chinese and Buddhist's are persecuted. The chinese have in theory carried out a genocide against tibetian culture, trying to assimilate tibet into China. It is a shame that has largly been ignored.
 
(+) Influence said:
Why I support China- From a Taiwanese point of view

After reading the responds here on CFC, I've concluded that Western media portrays China in a very unfavorable way. There are a lot of misconceptions about China’s conditions, the Chinese Government, the China-Taiwan relationship and so on. I’m willing to bet that some here are absolutely shocked to hear a Taiwanese support the mainland government. If I’m correct, that shows the amount of antagonism western media has against the Chinese government because the reality is many; in fact a majority of Taiwanese citizens support my view. Does it represent every Taiwanese opinion? No, and nothing ever will. But does it represent a majority of the people? You bet it does.

I’ve provided several links to help with my argument:
From CIA factbook
Link 1 CHN, Link 2 US, Link 3 UK, Link 4 IND, Link 5 BRAZ, Link 6 SK

Link 7 Poverty Reduction
Link 8 2002 Top 10 Tech
Link 9 2003 Top 10 tech
Link 10 Super computer
Link 11 Tsunami

The most remarkable achievement is the Chinese government’s effort to lift poverty. When the Party was established, over 50% of the population was in poverty. Today it’s only 10% (Link 1). This is even lower than the United States (the wealthiest nation in the world), which is at 12%(link 2) Other top nations figures are UK 17%(link 3), India 25% (link 4), Brazil 22%(link 5), and South Korea 4% (link 6).
Here are some quotes from (link 7)
“rural poverty population has dropped from 250 million in 1978 to 28.2 million in 2002, decreasing by 88.7%. Poverty population has averagely decreased by 9.24 million
per year”
“China’s contributing rate to the world’s cause of poverty is 166.9%.”
But that is not the end. The CCP recently reaccelerated the poverty reduction. Some people believe that the goal of a nation is to deliver democracy. And while that is a noble goal, if you believe that is the more important of the two choices, you probably have never been starving.

Another reason is the willingness of the government to invest in science. While the 1960’s figure had China’s literacy rate at 58%, today it is at 90.9% with male literacy at 95.1% and female literacy at 86.5% (link 1). In 2002, China developed the first cancer detection biochip (link 8). In 2003, China developed it’s first super computer (link 9), and by 2004 was able to build a super computer that ranked 9th in the world (link 10). In 2003, China also created a super-hybrid rice to help end hunger (link 9). In 2003, China also became the third nation in the world ever to have gone to space.

China’s growth is seen as a very positive thing by its neighboring countries. It shows its leadership to poor countries when Wen Jiabao personally made a trip to the Tsunami struck areas (link 11). Most other leaders just simply express their condolences on the air.
....
Click to expand...

The media portrayal of China is good. It puts pressure on China to improve and that a good thing. The US has supported many repressive regimes for economic gains and China is one of them. If we let this go unchecked then things won't improve.

I can ignore the short commings of any nation and praise them for various things as well. Taiwan is a nation the US has supported and it looks bad when China says it's willing to attack Taiwan for wanting to rule itself when it already has been for decades. I also find China to be too restrictive when it comes to civil liberties. I feel threatened by any attempt by government to control citizens by restricting information and that includes the US government. Just because a lot of citizens are content with being suppresed doesn't make it any better in my opinion.
 
luiz said:
You have to take into consideration that Poverty is measured in a relative manner. The averge poor person in the USA is way richer then the average non-poor chinese.
Click to expand...

So basically, you're talking about the equal distribution of wealth, not poverty? The wealth in China is more evenly distributed, but the fact that there is much less of it makes the median Chinese person poorer than the median American.
 
Combating poverty by having an incredibly low poverty line is ridiculous.

Using the international poverty line ( income < $1/day ) China has 18.8% of its population living in poverty. And 52.6% living with less than $2 per day.
 
Sims2789 said:
So basically, you're talking about the equal distribution of wealth, not poverty? The wealth in China is more evenly distributed, but the fact that there is much less of it makes the median Chinese person poorer than the median American.
Click to expand...

I'm saying that since the poverty line of nations is calculated based on the average income of said nation, it means nothing about the standard of living of the people.

The fact that China has relatively few people below the poverty line only means that the wealth is relatively evenly distributed, it says nothing about actuall poverty.

The US is so rich and China is so poor that the result is that the average poor american actually makes more money then the average non-poor chinese.

If we want to compare standard of living we must use something like the HDI, in which the US ranks 7 and China ranks 104.
 
Fetus4188 said:
Combating poverty by having an incredibly low poverty line is ridiculous.

Using the international poverty line ( income < $1/day ) China has 18.8% of its population living in poverty. And 52.6% living with less than $2 per day.
Click to expand...

Yes. If the standards for poverty were the same for all nations, that is, based on standard of living, not what each nation decides its poverty level is, China would have a much higher poverty rate than the US.
 
Tibetan independence is a hopeless cause now. Why? According to this article, due to massive migration (no not genocide) from China, Han Chinese and Hui Muslims actually *outnumber* Tibetans in Tibet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/02/24/MNG7FBG71U1.DTL

And the situation is only getting worse with a new railroad being built. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few decades Tibetans will be a small minority. Similarly, in inner Mongolia, Han Chinese have mostly replaced Mongolians. Ditto in Manchuria and the same process is happening in the western Muslim areas. This is actually a very old Chinese tactic which is how they conquered South China. However with modern technology mass migrations are happening on a much larger scale and much more rapidly than in the past. As for why this makes Tibetan independence a hopeless cause, now that Chinese form the majority of the population in Tibet, they can honestly say that the majority of the people living in Tibet want to stay in China. Also Tibetan independence will cause millions of deaths as more than half of the population are forced to flee. It would be a humanitarian catatrosphe. Incidentally these are the same reasons why Israel will never be driven out of the ME. Once you get a certain amount of population in an area, it is virtually impossible to dislodge them short of a genocidal war.
 
Although the incomes of poor Americans are higher than the incomes of non-poor Chinese, it still doesn't mean that the poor Americans are better off. Things would cost more in America than China, so one cannot use the international poverty line to judge poverty. Each country should be assigned a poverty line by the UN.
 
Tibet is truly one of the saddest stories of the 20th century

China claims Tibet has always been part of China, but the evidence clearly shows that Tibet has almost always been independent from China.

The simple fact that the Tibetan people consider themselves a seperate people from the Chinese should be enough.

Also the poverty rate severely DROPPED after the Chinese took over in 1950. This was even admitted by the Chinese government in the mid 1960's, when they said that their work in Tibet up to that point had been a complete failure.

Upwards of 98% of all the monastaries in Tibet have been Destroyed by the Chinese, and the Tibetan population continues to flee to India in a steady stream. While China is investing money into the country, most of it goes to the Chinese people living in Tibet. Over 80% of all business in Lhasa, the capitol, are owned by Chinese. The school system is being upgraded but again they often have a majority of Chinese students; and all students are required to speak Mandarin. Teachers from mainland China are also drawn to Tibet because China pays teachers more in Tibet than they do in mainland China. The colleges in Tibet are overwhelmingly filled with Chinese students.

Zero Tibetan students have attended China's premiere college (cant remember tha name) in the last 40 years; China says if there were any Tibetans smart enough they would be admitted. 10 Tibetans in that same period have managed to attend Harvard :/ (Not exactly sure about the numbers here I couldnt find the source but its something like that)

The facts are readily available to anyone.

EDIT: I just thought of a good comparison to the Tibet - China situation;

England and Ireland

The differences being Ireland was part of the British empire for much longer than Tibet was part of China(if Tibet was EVER actually under direct Chinese control, which is seriously in doubt) ... and Ireland is currently an independent country
 
On topic, every figure I have heard here in the US has the large majority of Taiwanese wanting to keep the status quo, with a much higher percent wanting imediate independence than wanting imediate unification.

The fact that China threats invasion if Taiwan declares independence is alarming enough. After Tibet, Japan and the US will not stand idly by as China forces its control over an independent country.

Also I have read several things that point to a continued worsening of Japanese - Chinese relations. With Japan moving to upgrade its military for the sole purpose of being able to oppose China's growing power and to be able to defend Taiwan if necessary.

Also, why does Taiwan have a democratically elected president who supports Independence if, as Influence says, the majority of Taiwanese support eventual reunification?
 
(+) Influence said:
...Now, about the government itself…Many people would like to portray China as a ruthless dictatorship that doesn’t want any democracy. This is simply not true. In the CCP’s plan for economic growth includes the establishment of local democracy. “ Fourthly,to create opportunities of democratic participation and advice expression for poor population.(link 7). Calling China a dictatorship is as insulting (if not more insulting to anyone who has been to China) as an American would feel to have Al-Jazeera calling American troops “BABY KILLERS”
...
Click to expand...
If you are insulted by the truth, that's your problem, isn't it? CCP has been in power for 50 years, if they wanted democracy they could have started years ago. How come India managed, eh? :p

If American troops kill babies, I'll call them baby killers, too.
 
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