Alternate Government Article Ratifacation

Black_Hole · Mar 5, 2005

Do you approve of the following articles?
Yes
No
Abstain

Article X. The government will consist of four branches: Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,

Article X. The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President. The President also leads discussion on how to use military and scientific great leaders.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city development objectives. Plans government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religious improvements into the big picture. Plans wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term fiscal policies.

Article X. The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch consists of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries. Controls movement of settlers and settler carrying transports.

5. Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial Branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and interpreting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will operate. These procedures must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution. The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the Judiciary.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise. Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution.

Note: This poll will be open for 3 days.

Black_Hole · Mar 5, 2005

Thanks for help with the Articles Goes to:
DaveShack, ravensfire, YNCS, and Provolution
Thanks Guys! :goodjob:

Strider · Mar 5, 2005

No, it is badly written, leaves out many duties and responsbilities, and does not go along with the other articles of the constitution.

Tell me, who's charged with spaceship parts?

Why do we still have an articel about the Vice President? The Vice President poistion is handled in a seperate article. We don't need to repeat it again.

Who is charged with overall planning of a Military Operation? The Commander or the External Consul? This should atleast be defined.

Donovan Zoi · Mar 5, 2005

Strider said:
No, it is badly written, leaves out many duties and responsbilities, and does not go along with the other articles of the constitution.

Please cite some examples, please. The ones below are not reason enough, considering our Constitutional crisis.

Strider said:
Tell me, who's charged with spaceship parts?

You are going to filibuster over spaceship parts? :confused:

You really are determined, aren't you?

Strider said:
Why do we still have an articel about the Vice President? The Vice President poistion is handled in a seperate article. We don't need to repeat it again.

This is a listing of all members of the Executive Branch. If anything, it belongs here.

Strider said:
Who is charged with overall planning of a Military Operation? The Commander or the External Consul? This should atleast be defined.

I think it's quite clear. The EC oversees the big picture, while the CoAF deploys the troops. Perhaps something should be added stating which position decides the order of city conquest. From what is listed here, my money is on the EC. Still not enough to derail this effort.

Black_Hole · Mar 5, 2005

The order of city conquest would be decided by Commander of Armed Forces, however for example the general area to attack would be decided by the External Consul
Spaceship parts are small wonders, thus falling under culture's juristiction

Strider · Mar 5, 2005

Fine, if you really and truely want a full list. Here you go:

1) Well first off, the deputies are part of the "Executive" department, are they handled in these articles? Nope, they have there own seperate article (which already goes over the Vice President BTW). It's already handled, and shouldn't be here.

2) Is the President Strategic or Tatical? According to his duties, he only handles "other" tasks not listed under a consul. What about tasks not listed under tatical? That would solve many problems

3) Formation of Provinces, were going to be needing it soon.

4) There should atleast be something that says that Expansion and Infastructure are combined later inside of the game. I can possibly see them being seperated at the start of the game, but they should be combined later on.

5) Under the Command of Armed Forces, it says that he is not incharge of Workers, Settlers, and non-military transports. Now workers and settlers have been designated elsewhere, but where do non-military transports fit in? Also, shouldn't scouts and explorers go under expansion? I doubt were use them, but it does fit.

6) In the discussions, it was agreed that this line is confusing and unclear: "allocation of laborers on tiles." Somehow it has still made it here.

7) Inside of the Judiciary Discussion, it was agreed upon that any changes to a Judiciaries procedures have to pass a vote of the people. It's been left out, again.

8) It says under the citizens Article the following: "After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution," that has tradational been (and it still is) placed inside of the amending the constitution article. Why is it here?

9) Going back to the Vice President article, if we were to keep it, why do we have the consuls approve our new President? Whatever happened to this being a democracy? Couldn't we just do it the old way alot easier?

10) Under the consul of R & T, what exactly is "long term resource policies." It sounds to me like management of our resources, and if it is, isn't that be the external consuls duty?

11) Shouldn't the Culture Consul try to fit any improvement we need at that time into the big picture?

12) Inside of the Judiciary Article, it says the following: "These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution." This is another repetive statement, it's already handled inside of another Article. Why must we repeat it again here?

13) Under the Governors section, it says that they are charged with the "allocation of laborers on tiles." Doesn't this interfere with Infrastructure's duties?

14) The Information Office/Cartography office. Should atleast be there.

15) Golden Age, we need someone tasked with monitoring it. Otherwise were likely to build a wonder that actives it at the wrong time.

------------

I'm stopping it at a nice 15 reasons.

Also, this is four differant articles, and should be handled inside of four differant polls.

Strider · Mar 5, 2005

All of the problems I pointed out above can be changed in less than one day. However, if this passes, those same problems could take a week or more to get fixed.

Black_Hole · Mar 5, 2005

Strider said:
Fine, if you really and truely want a full list. Here you go:

1) Well first off, the deputies are part of the "Executive" department, are they handled in these articles? Nope, they have there own seperate article (which already goes over the Vice President BTW). It's already handled, and shouldn't be here.

2) Is the President Strategic or Tatical? According to his duties, he only handles "other" tasks not listed under a consul. What about tasks not listed under tatical? That would solve many problems

3) Formation of Provinces, were going to be needing it soon.

4) There should atleast be something that says that Expansion and Infastructure are combined later inside of the game. I can possibly see them being seperated at the start of the game, but they should be combined later on.

5) Under the Command of Armed Forces, it says that he is not incharge of Workers, Settlers, and non-military transports. Now workers and settlers have been designated elsewhere, but where do non-military transports fit in? Also, shouldn't scouts and explorers go under expansion? I doubt were use them, but it does fit.

6) In the discussions, it was agreed that this line is confusing and unclear: "allocation of laborers on tiles." Somehow it has still made it here.

7) Inside of the Judiciary Discussion, it was agreed upon that any changes to a Judiciaries procedures have to pass a vote of the people. It's been left out, again.

8) It says under the citizens Article the following: "After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution," that has tradational been (and it still is) placed inside of the amending the constitution article. Why is it here?

9) Going back to the Vice President article, if we were to keep it, why do we have the consuls approve our new President? Whatever happened to this being a democracy? Couldn't we just do it the old way alot easier?

10) Under the consul of R & T, what exactly is "long term resource policies." It sounds to me like management of our resources, and if it is, isn't that be the external consuls duty?

11) Shouldn't the Culture Consul try to fit any improvement we need at that time into the big picture?

12) Inside of the Judiciary Article, it says the following: "These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution." This is another repetive statement, it's already handled inside of another Article. Why must we repeat it again here?

13) Under the Governors section, it says that they are charged with the "allocation of laborers on tiles." Doesn't this interfere with Infrastructure's duties?

14) The Information Office/Cartography office. Should atleast be there.

15) Golden Age, we need someone tasked with monitoring it. Otherwise were likely to build a wonder that actives it at the wrong time.

------------

I'm stopping it at a nice 15 reasons.

Also, this is four differant articles, and should be handled inside of four differant polls.

1. The Vice President is more than a deputy, he is the head deputy. He is the only deputy in the CoC, he shouldnt be smushed together with all the toher deputies
2. That would take more discussion, maybe have the VP head that?
3. I suggest you actually read the articles before complaining:

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries. Controls movement of settlers and settler carrying transports.

4. Not nessecary
5. Scouts and explorers are military, and under Commander, just cause they dont attack doesnt mean they arent military
6. Which discussion?
7. That was supported by some people in a discussion, not the entire discussion or a poll
8. So people like you(remember that incident) can find it
9. Its approving a vice president, if the VP is appointed mid term, he is still subject to a confirmation poll
10. Resources would be luxuries, gold, and strategic stuff. Those consuls should work together
11. huh?
12. What other article is it in?
13. That means the citizens inside a city... Not workers
14. Not nessecary, the office has no real power so anyone can create it... Unlike the ones mentioned that do have a small amount of power
15. I would guess this would fall under culture, but it isnt too nessecary

These articles all go together, we cant just approve strategic and not tactical.
You seem to just be nitpicking very small things... Most of these can be amended later, we need these articles before game play starts

Provolution · Mar 5, 2005

I voted for this proposal in awareness it needed improvements, amendments and adjustments. I have seen some willingness to move into the center direction, but mostly filibustering, U-turns and outright sabotage of other options than the Alternate Proposal and the Traditional One. We should really address workloads and powers balances for Term 2, and expect nothing but cooperation and flexibility in making this Article more palatable to a larger group of players. Going into denial or the trenches won't solve any.

Strider · Mar 5, 2005

I'm not going to even bother fighting right now, this poll is invalid anyway.

Provolution · Mar 5, 2005

Yeah, it should be private.

Black_Hole · Mar 5, 2005

Strider said:
I'm not going to even bother fighting right now, this poll is invalid anyway.

why is it?
all constitution ratifacation polls are public, what have you guys been smoking?
they have been since late DG4...

Moderator Action: Don't get personal and don't suggest other people's motivations are based on external influences. - Rik

Strider · Mar 5, 2005

Black_Hole said:
why is it?
all constitution ratifacation polls are public, what have you guys been smoking?
they have been since late DG4...

First off, the poll itself has to run for 4 days... not 3.

Second, the mock poll has to stay up for an entire day. Not 9 hours. You have to wait untill 8:19 PM tonight to post the poll.

So technically revisions are still possible, so I suggest you fix the problems while you have a chance, and then re-post the mock poll.

Ashburnham · Mar 5, 2005

Sorry, Strider, but at 15-1 the WOTP has clearly been established. Fighting over the length of a mock poll is not solving anything. I suggest you accept the fact that we're using an alternative government for the Demogame and stop trying to derail the process.

Provolution · Mar 5, 2005

Yeah, there is a difference of constructive input and sabotage.
However, the originator of the Alternative Proposal could have listened much more to other people, and you know that Ash.

Black_Hole · Mar 6, 2005

Well none of the other ratifacation articles even had mock pollls...
I think strider has a point, unfortunately I am having trouble finding the poll where we accepted that plan...

Strider · Mar 6, 2005

Black_Hole said:
Well none of the other ratifacation articles even had mock pollls...
I think strider has a point, unfortunately I am having trouble finding the poll where we accepted that plan...

Actually, the "rules for ratifying the rules" thread had, as the thread named implied, the rules for ratifying the rules. However, it would be illogical to use that setup, because you'd have to get 40 votes to meet quorum requirements. Although the mock polls weren't required in this, and it's what the other ratification polls were based off of. Goodluck trying to get 40 votes in this poll though.

As such, the most logical choice is to use the old "amending the constitution" rules from last demogame. Which requires a 1 day mock poll, and then I believe a 1 day submittion to JUdiciary, and then a 4 day poll.

Provolution · Mar 6, 2005

Black Hole, as a Chief Justice, you do not have the liberties to flame and insult people, and you need to stand forwards as a good example, even though I know it can be hard to behave for a teenager. I really did not find that smoke comment appropriate for several reasons. I do not smoke, I hate the drug economy for ideological reasons, I do not have one friend that has been using drugs, I have bigotry to people advocating the free use of illegal drugs as well as animosity to people endorsing such public statements and finally I do not like to have kids defaming me unjustified.

Black_Hole · Mar 6, 2005

Provolution said:
Black Hole, as a Chief Justice, you do not have the liberties to flame and insult people, and you need to stand forwards as a good example, even though I know it can be hard to behave for a teenager. I really did not find that smoke comment appropriate for several reasons. I do not smoke, I hate the drug economy for ideological reasons, I do not have one friend that has been using drugs, I have bigotry to people advocating the free use of illegal drugs as well as animosity to people endorsing such public statements and finally I do not like to have kids defaming me unjustified.

I apologize provo and Strider, next time I will mark my saracasm with a "

"
Sorry

Provolution · Mar 6, 2005

Even a smiley won't save you when playing the smoking card.

Alternate Government Article Ratifacation

Do you approve of the below articles?

Yes

No

Abstain

Deity

Deity

In Retrospect

The Return

Deity

In Retrospect

In Retrospect

Deity

Sage of Quatronia

In Retrospect

Sage of Quatronia

Deity

In Retrospect

King

Sage of Quatronia

Deity

In Retrospect

Sage of Quatronia

Deity

Sage of Quatronia

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