SGOTM7 - Team jeffelammar

SGOTM7 - Team jeffelammar

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Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Ottomans
World size - 80 wide by 80 high. (Small)
Difficulty - Deity
Landform - Archepelago
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game. The SGOTM Reference thread contains all the files and links you need to install the small mod for PTW/C3C and rather larger mod for vanilla. There are test saves too so you can check your installation.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
SGOTM Reference Thread.
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This Months' sponsored variant is Always War Deity (AWD) the rules for which are as follows.

1. You must declare war on each Civilisation by the end of the turn you make that contact.
2. You must remain at war with each Civilisation until the end of the game, or until that Civilisation is destroyed.
3. You may trade with a Civilisation on the turn you make contact and before declaring war, but you may not establish any embassies.
4. No turn based (gpt) deals are permitted.
5. You must win by Domination.

Note: PTW and Vanilla players are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders Before the year 1000BC for this game.

Looks like I'm the first to spot this thread.

Everyone else is probably busy with GOTM 43

A couple questions for the team?

1. Who's won at least a couple (> 2) diety games on C3C? (only 2 for me)
2. Anyone played a lot of always war games ? (again only 2 for me)
3. Any preference on order of play? (no preference for me)


For those expierenced with this kind of game, how about a couple of hints?

Things like what to research, build and should we explore?

Checking in.

to answer denyd's questions: yes, some, we'll have to discuss.

Hints:

We start with 2 of the really crucial AW techs (Spears and Walls). We must research Warrior Code ASAP. The only alternative would be an Iron Working gambit, but that seems a bit too risky.

Some early things are pretty obvious, like the CxxC city spacing, 2x Spear as first build. Very cautions scouting. We can't build any ships from start anyway; but once we have them, contact everyone ASAP.

The, everything depends on if we are alone on an island or not (and considering m-b announced this as 'more like AWE' I could imagine we're alone).
If we have one or more neighbors, we need to head to Math, and fight.
If we are alone, situation is completely different. We need to research like mad. Given this is a small map (high corruption), most of our research will come from very few cities, mainly the capitals. We may want several (!) ancient wonders. Colossus should help us more than GLib. GLib is still nice to have, but with slow boats, contacts will take forever. Lighthouse is something I cannot tell how crucial it is because I have zero experience with the differential naval movement. MoM would help to get a size 12 city without any happiness issues. And TGW - neither do we want an AI Civ having it, nor do we want to wait for Sipahi to trigger our GA.
Every wonder gives tourism, so the approach would be to build up the capital like a 20k city (I'm aware we won't get all wonders -but the Colossus is the most crucial in my eyes).

I have won at Deity and above a fair number times, probably 10 or 12 games counting SGs and solo games. I have played one AW game at monarch, one at emperor, and two at demigod.

If we share a continent with someone, two regular spears won't save us against Deity starting units. I would suggest taking a big risk to start and building a granary in the capital to start with.

I also think Alphabet as initial research is best. We should be able to trade for Warrior Code if we are forced to declare on someone early on, thus needing archers, they will almost certainly have Warrior Code and odds are we can get Warrior Code.

I am not sure how I feel about that much wonder building at Deity. The three wonders Doc suggested are 700s total. A big risk to take. And if the game goes long enough for tourism to be a major factor, we'll be in trouble. The biggest thing in AW is always making forward progress, because achieving anything less will signify the beginning of the end.

2 Spears should save as from the starting units of a non-MIL opponent; that's only 4 Warriors to deal with. But, we'll have 6 Spears sitting outside for 60+ turns if we research Alpha first...

700sp for one city are of course risky. The main reasoning (aside from the really useful Colossus - but if we at all should try for that one depends on the AI Civs; if Byzantium or Portugal is in the game - forget it.) is the GA trigger. We won't really benefit from a Sipahi GA. If we ever research MT, the game should be almost over, and we only have to upgrade our Knights (hopefully...).
MoM + TGW is the only somewhat likely way to get an earlier GA (GLib works as well, of course - but costs twice as much).

I'm here.

I've never even attempted diety (in C3C or PTW) and I regularly get trounced on emperor, although I've been having more success lately. I've played AW once though to the end, on monarch. I have no preference on order of play. I also have no useful thoughts about builds and research yet, but you've given me food for thought.

Hi everyone.
First let me say welcome to DocT. It is great to have a player of your caliber on this team. I think we shocked some people with how well we performed last round and I anticipate we'll do it again. As far as denyd's questions...

1. I have lost my only attempt on diety. That was 4 months ago so hopefully I've learned a few things since then. I have won solos on DG twice.
2. I have not played an AW although I started one this weekend with the Ottomans on deity. We'll see. I have played in two DG defiant games that were unsuccessful after we had some AI's raze cities. Not good in defiant.
3. I feel I am the weakest player here so I would think it would help if I played between DocT and Bed Head, our two most experienced AW players.

Things I've understood to be critical in these type games include kill %, iron, luxs and an army. Stack naval because the AI is reluctant to attack. Try to create as narrow a front as you can. I am curious why most AW games I read about go for the GLib and we are looking at the Colossus? Is it that the extra commerce ultimately helps our research?

One more thing. I saw in Ginger Ale's AW game that they are keeping track of their kill rate. I think it would be pretty cool for us to do that as well.

The GLib thing is an all-or-nothing shot. And, it works better on standard maps, since there you'll be sure to meet enough AI in time.
We, however, are playing against the clock. And I'm not sure if we contact two advanced AIs fast enough to really benefit from the GLib. Plus, we're SCI, so we'll get one MA tech fro free anyway.
The good thing about the Colossus is: Either an AI has a good coastal capital, then it'll complete long before we'd waste shields for a Granary. With only 5 opponents, chances are good we have the best coastal spot, though.
And, if we reach Sipahi, we'll rock.
I am not against the GLib - I'm only against relying on the GLib . If the Colossus fails, we have a plan B.

But, we of course need to know about our landmass before we decide.

Checking in. Will post thoughts tomorrow.

I'll chip in my two cents again.

If I was playing this one solo, my plan would be to settle in place, building an exploring warrior and followed by 2 spears and a settler. By the time the settler is complete my wandering warrior would hopefully have discovered if we are alone and where city 2 should go. If we are in a Gilligan setup and remember this is a custom built map, then the need for future spears lessened.

Research is a tough choice, iron working or warrior code are my primary options, with alphabet a close third. I think I'd start with warrior code. That should only be a 15-20 turn research. By the time it's done, we should know if we'll need boats ASAP.

What would be really sneaky, is a nearby AI, somehow handicapped, for us to grow against. Then the other three AI on an island across a vast expanse of ocean tiles that would require Galleons to invade. That would force us to kill the nearby neighbor quickly and then get to Magnetism & Military Tradition on our own.

Well, we seem to be quickly falling off the pace here. We are still on the first page! Very much different than how we started off the last game. Unless anyone minds, I will play the first 20 turns in about 24 hours. My plan is one spear, followed by a granary. No exploration to begin. Our next city has only one logical position in my opinion - somewhere three tiles along the river, so we don't need to worry too much about exploration.

Research is where we need to make a decision. I would like to go for Alphabet still. In AW, spears don't really come along at first, as they are all used to defend the first settlers and cities. So we'll only have to worry about warriors or archers, who'll just impale themselves on our spearmen. Mathematics is much more important to get ASAP.

I'd like to base research and build order on the AIs in this game. If noone is MIL, skip WC. If noone is SCI, head for WC -we may be able to kill a neighbor (if we happen to have one at all).

But, your plan has one seriuos flaw - a Granary?

No granaries BH. What about rax instead?
I lean towards alpha too even though it may take close to 50 turns. Alpha eventually opens the option of cats and galleys. Both of which seem really, really important in this type game. Cats for leader farming and galleys to block and get to the AI. Is that correct thinking? I guess a lot depends on who is in the game when the space race is checked.

BTW what will our order be?

A couple of things

Is that wool in the opening screen? That would give us a luxury and allow us to grow to size 2. We would then need either an MP or a temple to get to size 3 for a settler.

I agree that a granary, while nice for growth is probably a luxury we won't be able to afford for a while. An initial defender probably won't be needed for 10-15 turns, so a barracks isn't a bad idea.

As for research, Alphabet & Iron Working both take about the same time at this stage of the game. Warrior Code & The Wheel are a lot quicker. Who are the other tribes in the game? If no scientific, then Warrior Code followed by either Iron Working or Alphabet depending on if we are alone or not. I'd hate to miss out on being able to take out a neighbor with swords early by researching Alphabet.

denyd said:

Is that wool in the opening screen?

Click to expand...

Sorry I've been silent so far. This game is a bit out of my comfort area. (But that is a good thing) I'm still having trouble giving up on my normal farmer gambit.

That is "Sheep" in the opening screen. They are the same as cattle. (+2 f, +1 s) The Wool have more sheep in the resource icon. (The lux would have been nice)

The oysters in the northeast are +2 f, +1 c, so a harbor or good gov makes that a food source as well.

Given the amount of food at the start, I would normally go farmer gambit here and try for a quick granary using a chop of the forest to the south. Given the AWD, I guess we should try something else

I think we probably want to pop out a settler before we build either a barracks or granary. Even when not in a farmer's gambit food is king. I'm thinking spear -> spear -> settler. Use the first spear to scout 2 or 3 squares in each direction just to find our second city site.

Given that our first city is practically on a penninsula, I think we want a bit looser city placement than we used in the early parts of the last game.

As for research, I like Alphabet for the curraghs to get out and quickly get all AIs into a war footing. Looking at the local terrain, I'd say that a horse resource is more likely than iron, so I would go for The Wheel before going for Iron Working.

So either Alphabet -> The Wheel or The Wheel -> Alphabet would be my choice.

I'd like to know if we need to build archers before I spend time on WC. The only scenario I see that requires archers is if we find ourselves sharing an island and must fight right away. We should know that by the time our first research finishes.

Suggested Roster: Scream if you don't like it (as usual, all I did is grab the order from MB's team posting)

bed_head7
CKS
denyd
DocTsiolkovski
jeffelammar
Whomp

I'm going to be unavailable this Friday, Saturday and Sunday (back Sunday night), so I'd prefer to be a little earlier or later in the roster (or I could skip my first round if necessary)

I'm not sure we want any curraghs out early. I'd like to delay meeting an AI until we have something besides BW & Masonry to trade for their techs.

Without a local luxury, we'll need a pair of MP (or the slider) to get big enough for a settler. I agree with wanting to get a second city ASAP.

There will be no skipping you denyd. We need your game. Why don't you just flip with cks if you can?

Would warrior (explorer), spear (mp), rax (assumes no contact) then settler make sense? We'd be a little bigger when we pop the settler.

Does early lux slider matter much in AW? If we're running alpha or IW it wouldn't adjust research speed. Vet warriors upgrades (assuming iron) are a possibility I guess.

I like the lineup so can we go whale on someone now?

Sorry I've not posted much. This has been a busy work week, but it ends tomorrow morning, so I'll be better. I'll be unavailable next week on Tuesday and Wednesday, but swapping with denyd wouldn't be a problem. We can either do it on a one-time basis, so as to stay in alphabetical order, or we can switch permanently.

I'd rather research the wheel or warrior code before alphabet; if we have a neighbor they will help more, and they won't take as long to learn. (If we find we want archers 20 turns into learning alphabet, we are stuck.) If we have no neighbor, we can expand to fill our island while we research alphabet, then we can hunt for neighbors while we research to map making. Be aware that I have no idea what I'm talking about here, though.

We should check on who's in the game, as Doc Tsiolkovski suggested.

Oh right, no granaries. Silly me. Well, in that case, I'll open up the save in a few hours and report opponents and such other information that I deem to be pertinent for some further discussion, if necessary.