Introducing and Developing the Interesting Times Concept.

das

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Introducing and Developing the Interesting Times Concept.

"May you live in Interesting Times!"
- ancient Chinese curse.

This is a concept on which I hope to base my next NES.

It is based on several assumptions:
- The Fresh Start NESes, in theory, should reach from the 4000/2000 BC to 2005 AD. I am unaware of any such NES achieving this, and yet I would really have loved to see that done.
- The wide majority of NES players like to play in interesting times, when great wars and rebellions erupt, when colonial and other empires are built or ruined, etc, etc. BUT:
- Real history could be divided into "interesting" and "uninteresting times". Lets face it - (much of) 5th century BC is less interesting then, for instance, the short period of 336-323 BC. And yet, by the rules of standard Fresh Start NESes, one turn is supposedly enough to cover 5th century or 4th century alike.
- Thus, for the sake of realism, and, indeed, interest, it would have been better to spend more turns on short, but INTERESTING periods of time and less turns on long, but UNINTERESTING periods of time.

This is rather similar to an idea of EQ's and Warman's that unfortunately in both cases died somewhere in the second part (if memory doesn't betray me). This also, however, takes a lot from the idea of Plexus which he, too, never really carried out, and which was expanded upon by North King, who did the history to 1500 AD and then killed the NES for the lack of orders.

So, what is my plan?

A Fresh Start NES (okay, I will change a lot from your average Fresh Start, for example with features like "Civilized Zones", with my own NES2 rules (that will probably undergo large changes, if indeed I will actually keep a brick on brick again)), i.e. you create your own civilization, hopefully historical for that time or original, don't care too much as long as it is realistic and as long as you can plausibly explain how did it come to be. After the civilizations are created, I write the history (taking into account your cultures and your development plans if you send any in, though I will not follow them strictly, as descendants of the first ruler rarely do that) until the first Interesting Time (which will be when the nations are developped enough for the Rise of First Empires, or otherwise for interesting conflicts). Then, the first IT of the NES begins, which is like an ordinary NES, only, ofcourse, the time scale will be shorter, 25 years for example. Then, after a set amount of turns, or after the lose of interest (whichever comes first), or if when the set amount runs out there still are major wars/rebellions/world-changing events on, I will again write the history until the next IT.

I hope my explanation is understood. I would like to know if this idea interested anybody, and/or if anybody could offer some more ideas on this, whether in addition to the original ones or in modifying them.

Please note that befor I start, I will have to get rid of the exams (theoretically, by 15th of June, practically, after 3rd because that's when the algebra exam takes place, and that's the only one over which I am worried, as by all indications the other ones - Russian, English, History - will be much more of a walkover), and I will also have to finnish the development of this concept and of my ordinary rules, which need quite some revamping to work for the Fresh Start idea.

Oh, and I forgot to add, you could create new nations at any point in the game, whether by rebellion or in an untaken Civilized Zone, or even elsewhere if you explain why do you think you could do that one.
 
What vacation? Well, I might update more then once a week, true, but most people won't be able to keep up with that pace, I'm afraid.
 
Seems good....
 
How few comments!

So, no suggestions here?
 
I would like the idea of 1 or 2 maybe 5 year turns in the "interesting times". This would also make stories in early times easier and better, because you could create characters who last for several turns.

However you will have to make sure that the NES doesn't die as fast as all the other NES with similar concept. I think often the problem is that the player nations often screw up during the "time jumps" and the people become bored as all their plans are failing.
 
Actually, its more like the fact that mods lacked time. I timed this perfectly, for the beginning of the summer, so it will be easier that way.

That, and I don't like to abandon good ideas. You know I don't. As long as you people are interested...

Now, as for turn length, I guess that could probably change as the time goes, but, well, yes, I'm planning the maximum to be 25. More likely, for more ancient times, 10 years, or maybe even five.

Btw, tossi, you brought up a very important point. I guess (sigh...) I will have to go easy on the PCs in between-time. Its like this, I guess - little nations tend to be more enduring, while when a Great Empire comes really close to collapse, that would be an interesting time.
 
I was hoping for something SF,just another fresh start,bleh.
 
Sorry, I don't really like SF NESes, though there are (or rather, were) some exceptions.
 
This looks great, I want to see how the various mods that might try this idea can screw up a nation with ambiguous orders! Seriously, this looks very cool, I really don't like MMing in CivIII, might as well not in an NES.
 
I like this, To an extent I like the "big updates" usually the first where you set your house in order or for instance Goobers 10 year one. Mainly because instead of watching things grow, you dream about set about a system to do it. Then Wait. Next turn Volia.

Of course I don't think I've ever been in a war with a PC nation :|
 
great idea... if it works.
might make a game survive all the way through the ages.... if it works.

the biggest problem i see with the concept is that the interesting and boring times dont always corelate for the whole world. so while the america's might be in an interesting time (war between the inca's and aztex and so on) europe might be boring (peace and just some infrastracture growing) while asia is heading into an interesting time (ie tensions rising between nations, but not quite to hostilities yet)
so how will you pick when to "pause" the interesting time and inforce boring ones?

if its predetermined number of turns, then that means that players will be forced to finish up their wars by a certain turn. that's unrealistic. and if you try to settle/decide a war during the "boring" times, then i guarantee that one of the two players will quit about half the time.

if its just when "the there doesnt seem to be much going on" then you'll have a player quit every time you end the interesting times, cause he'll think that he's getting screwed by it cause he was just about to lauch an offencive or something. or cause you cut into someone's development plans when they werent done.

if its just random (sucky but fair, so fewer quiters), then the concept is nowhere near as good as it could have been, cause all it becomes is that every few updates you, the mod, add some heavy random events to give all the nations something to deal with. that's been done, and it fails cause the players dont have enough control over their own nations.

and then theres the problem with players deserting their nation after a "boring time" that didnt go how they wanted/expected it.

if you make the "boring times" too unconcequential (to preven anger/quiting) then all this becomes is that you're making the turns a bigger number of years in order to rush to the "end game" quicker.


i dont mean to sound like a pessimist, but i think its a great concept that is VERY difficult to balance.
plus you seem to "improve" your games in the direction that i personaly would view as "make worse" cause you're going further and further away from board games, lol. but that's just me. i know i'm a oddity among the NESers. hope you can figure out a way to make this work.
i suggest NOT making this a full earth game. maybe europe only or something. and limit the number of players. that will cut down on some of the "boring time for them, but interesting time for us" problem because most nations will be neighbors to eachother.
 
I have to admit that I begun to formulate this concept in my mind after reading Goober's ten year update.
 
the biggest problem i see with the concept is that the interesting and boring times dont always corelate for the whole world. so while the america's might be in an interesting time (war between the inca's and aztex and so on) europe might be boring (peace and just some infrastracture growing) while asia is heading into an interesting time (ie tensions rising between nations, but not quite to hostilities yet)

Wouldn't say so. When the Spanish were conquering the Aztecs and the Incans (to use this example), the Reformation begun in Europe, and China was suffering from large-scale Japanese pirate raids. And while Alexander was conquering Persia, the first Chinese empire was being forged by fire and iron.
so how will you pick when to "pause" the interesting time and inforce boring ones?

I will when interest dies out, i.e. the large wars are over, and generally peace sets in after a small period of much change.
if its predetermined number of turns, then that means that players will be forced to finish up their wars by a certain turn. that's unrealistic. and if you try to settle/decide a war during the "boring" times, then i guarantee that one of the two players will quit about half the time.

I already explained that I'll let them finish their wars.
if its just when "the there doesnt seem to be much going on" then you'll have a player quit every time you end the interesting times, cause he'll think that he's getting screwed by it cause he was just about to lauch an offencive or something. or cause you cut into someone's development plans when they werent done.

As said before, I won't stop the IT until the decisive, history-changing events are over. As for development plans, I don't know what could prevent them to be carried out during the BT phase.
if its just random (sucky but fair, so fewer quiters), then the concept is nowhere near as good as it could have been, cause all it becomes is that every few updates you, the mod, add some heavy random events to give all the nations something to deal with. that's been done, and it fails cause the players dont have enough control over their own nations.

As far as I know from my experience, they WILL make any time interesting. There's always enough of those. So I don't think I will have to make too many important random events, simply create the crisises in the beginning.
and then theres the problem with players deserting their nation after a "boring time" that didnt go how they wanted/expected it.

I will try not to screw their nations up too much, but there will be exceptions, in which case... well, tough luck for them.
if you make the "boring times" too unconcequential (to preven anger/quiting) then all this becomes is that you're making the turns a bigger number of years in order to rush to the "end game" quicker.

Um, no. Rather, the time pace, as I explained before, slows down for the IT, and speeds up for the BT. It WILL be rather inconsequential as of itself, but during it the seeds of a crisis explored in the IT will be created (for example, the Mongols will be united).
i dont mean to sound like a pessimist, but i think its a great concept that is VERY difficult to balance.

All great concepts are.
plus you seem to "improve" your games in the direction that i personaly would view as "make worse" cause you're going further and further away from board games, lol. but that's just me. i know i'm a oddity among the NESers. hope you can figure out a way to make this work.

Figured that you would say that... ;)
i suggest NOT making this a full earth game. maybe europe only or something. and limit the number of players. that will cut down on some of the "boring time for them, but interesting time for us" problem because most nations will be neighbors to eachother.

I already explained why do I think that a full-earth game should work. Either way, guess we'll have to wait and see how it DOES turn out...
 
I am not a fan of big update things. oo many things are random left up to chance and you don't have enough control.
 
I would love this, though I have few suggestions.

However, if you make this a Europe only NES, or something, then I would not join.

Look forward to it.

:)
 
I would love this, though I have few suggestions.

Do speak.
However, if you make this a Europe only NES, or something, then I would not join.

You know I won't, I hate to limit things to just one continent.
 
das said:
Do speak.

I have few suggestions. That means I'd have little to say, and besides, I'm on a school computer at this point, so I have to stop typing every 30 seconds in any case. Not time to say what I need to say.

But can I reserve a spot? :mischief:

You know I won't, I hate to limit things to just one continent.

Good. :)
 
I, for one, love this concept.

This, to a certain extent, solves a major problem with NESing: conflict; very few wars last more than a few years, let alone several hundred.
 
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