Five-Cow Opening question ...

Hi folks,

I've not played Civ in ... well, years, until a few days ago when I found it still loaded on a computer that had been neglected for ... well, a while, anyway.

Having forgotten everything, I've been reading the forums in a vain effort to become immediately competitive again at emperor level, Civ3, 1.29f. Though I'm not getting walloped, I'm not playing well enough to win.

I see there are plenty of tips around here to help me get better, so I won't ask the "Duh, how do I win at Empreror level?" question. But I have a question about what I think is an interesting opening position. I'm sure every opening in the galaxy has been seen and played by someone ... but I'm really unsure of how to take advantage of the bounty bestowed upon me for my first city.

Five cows. Yep. Nice, huh? You'd think I cheated, but I didn't.

And I tanked at my first effort to play it. I'm the Americans, and I was on a relatively small continent stuck between the Iroquois and the Aztecs. I managed to finish off the Aztecs, but it took too long and I was way behind in both tech and military, a sitting duck for the Iroquois in the end.

I built a second city and then started pumping out troops since there didn't seem to be enough room to peacefully develop more than about 4-5 cities anyway -- I figured I was better off going for a quick knockout but I couldn't get it.

Anyone have any advice for a replay, or should I just shrug it off as an oddity? ;-) Screenshot of the initial position attached ...

Is that fresh water? If so, irrigate all cows except one for two settler factories and a worker factory.

(Welcome to CFC! )

Tomoyo said:

Is that fresh water? If so, irrigate all cows except one for two settler factories and a worker factory.

Click to expand...

Isnt it more the food, the better ? Well, I dont really know how the factory works(settler/worker factory i mean )

Tomoyo said:

Is that fresh water? If so, irrigate all cows except one for two settler factories and a worker factory.

(Welcome to CFC! )

Click to expand...

Thanks.

It is, in fact, fresh water.

Are you suggesting that my second city be built in close to the first, so that it gets two cows ... and a third city that is able to use a cow? I've never built cities that tight before at the start, though I know some people swear by it.

I only heard the term "settler factory" when I started reading here ... I don't quite have the knack of it yet, though I've been close. Annoying to watch a city with population four or five drop suddenly to one or two ... I haven't figured out what I'm doing wrong when I do it wrong, but it's kind of cool when I get it mostly right.

Your first three cities should be close enough (but not too close, or else you won't have enough shields) that your capital and your third city share one cow, and your second city has two cows all to itself. You alternate one cow between your capital and your third city. Your capital should have enough shields for a settler factory, and, assuming good terrain in the fog, so should your second city.

Tomoyo said:

Your first three cities should be close enough (but not too close, or else you won't have enough shields) that your capital and your third city share one cow, and your second city has two cows all to itself. You alternate one cow between your capital and your third city. Your capital should have enough shields for a settler factory, and, assuming good terrain in the fog, so should your second city.

Click to expand...

Kora doshi.

OK, I sort of tried that ... attached file is one possibility, I suppose? It's at 2190 BC ... I have three cities, the southernmost one was just built and is undefended. City two is building a granary, city one already has one and I'm trying to get it "in synch" for a factory, but it sure can produce a lot of food.

I'm even in tech with the Aztecs, to the north -- traded bronzeworking and pottery for warrior code and ceremonial burial. The Iroquois, to the south, are already up two techs -- Alphabet and wheel.

I'd grab that hill just below the cow at the top of the screen. A a cow and fish resource there plus a defensive bonus from the hill. I'd build a spearman right away there so your close neighbor doesn't harrass you. (that city or another) After pumping out a worker and a settler. I'd strongly consider working on a temple. That will expand your territory so you can get that fish and help establish your territory for your nearby neighbor, if your lucky you can take over your neighbors city with cultural influance. (still expanding all the time with your other cities) Not sure if thats the best way to go, just the way I'd probably go.

Plus I'd get conquest Whats the seed generator number for that map? If you go to the main menu and choose "replay world" it will tell you. I could try the map myself and see how well I do.

Nah. Don't do that.

Temples are too expensive for non-religious civs. Spearmen are useless to defend a single city so early, especially regular.

I would have put another city 3 NE of New York to create the last of the three great cow/wheat cities.

Spearman make your neighbors give you more respect. On emperor setting I've had neighbors take over a undefended city and declare war early on. On emperor setting you need some spearman. The presence of one or more spearman can mean the difference between neighbors extorting you or taking your cities and declaring war or not. Plus sometimes you run into barbs when expanding, having something to defend workers and setters in barb infected areas can be crucial. You don't want to have to hold your expansion till you pump out something to protect that settler etc. Which is why its good to have a spearman escort for workers and settlers venturing in unknown areas or areas you haven't seen in awhile (since barbs can sneak in unknown sometimes)

Prime spot for a spearman build is a town where the settler would be produced faster then growth.

As far as the temple, thats a little more iffy, but on border areas and spots where you want to get resources in your domain, even if your culture isn't religious, temples can be worth building just for the culture per turn. The expanding culture can help other nearby towns, help protect you from cultural conversation and give you a chance at cultural conversion. Make sure your neighbor doesn't plop towns amongst your own giving you really strange borders. While I'd get out a worker and a settler from the town first, temple does seem to be appropriate for that spot IMHO.

Your suggestion for a town 3 ne of cap is good. I'd take that cow/fish hill after that though.

TruePurple said:

<snip ... and thanks. > ...

Plus I'd get conquest Whats the seed generator number for that map? If you go to the main menu and choose "replay world" it will tell you. I could try the map myself and see how well I do.

Click to expand...

I don't see "replay world" as an option ... maybe that is in a different version? I'll attach the save file I have of 4000 BC ... I had moved the scout and built City 1, but that's all.

(Note: Barbs are sedentary, map is normal size, continents, seven random opponents.

Archers make your opponents respect you more than spearmen.

The AI gives more weight to archers then spearman? Are you sure?

Well spearman are much more useful then archers for protection of expanding units. You run into a barbarian unit during expansion it will attack next turn and you will be on the defensive.

As far as a reply world option, maybe thats a conquest thing. I could dig out my civ3 gold cd and check it out. Conquest expansion does seem to be worth getting if you sprung for civ3 plain.

So far ...

I think I've found out that there isn't a lot of room for error, even with a lot of resources, when you're sandwiched between two AIs on a relatively small continent.

I've got a game going where I generally followed the advice above, and am at 470 BC ... and all three Civs are at war with each other! The Iroquois attacked me ... I got the Aztecs to come in on my side for 2 techs -- and they declared war on me the next turn!

There's a mini-continent west of the main starting point that the Iroquois and I got to at about the same time ...

I hate the Aztecs.

While we're at it, welcome back to Civ! Just a tip: Build lots of workers. When I struggled at cheiftan, in Modern Times I would still have my only starting worker. You can see why I struggled, can't you? You're industrious so I'd say 2 per city.

Well you only need to develop a few tiles per settler factory city plus roads between cities. I don't dedicate my workers to any one city. I try to develop key tiles per city then start working on roads to the next planned spot for a city. This way when a settler is produced it can quickly get to its destination and hopefully have a developed tile or to to work with as well. But if I wasn't able to get a road to a city spot before I had a settler to take that spot, sometimes ill just use that city to produce its own worker. Especially if the the time it takes to make the worker is the same as the time it takes to get the second pop head (usually in this case the number is 10, pregrainery I mean)

I mean if a city is pumping out settlers on a regular bases the city won't need more then a few tiles developed. But if you plan to use a city for soldier making, thats a different story. I typically don't use a spot as soldier only unless food is really short. I typically switch between solder & settler for cities who need the space between settlers to build up their pop. Though I typically don't escort settlers like I should and have suffered from such before.

TruePurple said:

The AI gives more weight to archers then spearman? Are you sure?

Well spearman are much more useful then archers for protection of expanding units. You run into a barbarian unit during expansion it will attack next turn and you will be on the defensive.

As far as a reply world option, maybe thats a conquest thing. I could dig out my civ3 gold cd and check it out. Conquest expansion does seem to be worth getting if you sprung for civ3 plain.

Click to expand...

Well... in PTW and C3C, the barbs start acting funny, and there's no guarantee that the spearman will help you kill barbs - he'll probably just pillage you.

TruePurple said:

The AI gives more weight to archers then spearman? Are you sure?

Click to expand...

I think AI give more weight to offensive units than defensive units.

Here are the settings for your game:

PLAYERS:
America (Human player)
Aztecs
Iroquois
Japan
China
India
France
England

Barbarians: SEDENTARY.

Climate: NORMAL.

LandForm: CONTINENTS.

Map Size: STANDARD.

Ocean Coverage: 70%.

Temperature: TEMPERATE.

World Age: 5 BILLION YEARS.

World seed: 87678587

You shouldn't be irrigating the cattle. For settler factory the priority is to get a Granary and just 5 excess food per turn. That way you grow 2 pop in 4 turns. Mine the cattle to produce the settler in the same time. plus mining lets you get the granary faster. On emperor you want to go for a land grab with first city, build a barracks and pump out spears or archers with second (and possibly third as well). I would build warriors in new cities for mp's followed by a worker each for infrastructure, when spears arrive in cities, take the warriors off to your barracks for upgrading to swords. Its worth building archers in case you end up without the iron to upgrade your warriors. Which would suck, obviously.

Can you build the colossus? That followed by the Gt Library would make you competitive in research while you grow. If you don't have much land to go for, I would agree that military is your best bet early on though. Try for Lit/Gt Library/Republic ASAP. Then rely on the GL for tech while you switch your economy to hurrying swordsmen and spank your neighbours.

Brennen is right, you don't need to irrigate all the cows.

For a settler factory you need a granary, + 5 food per turn and 7 or 8 shields per turn.

I am at work so I can't play the game, but a quick play with a spreadsheet give me this:- irrigate 1 cow, mine 1 cow and mine 2 bonus grasslands. At size 4 this will give you + 5 food and 8 shields (food: 2 from city center, 1 from the mined cow and 2 from the irrigated cow). After 2 turns mm the city to put the new worker an unmined grassland for +5 food and +8 shields again. After another 2 turns the settler will pop and the city will be back to size 4. Repeat . Remember you have to mm the city every 2 turns so that you are working the correct squares and adjust the luxes at the same time.

You could try the same trick with the second city, but you are 1 bg short so you will need 2 mined grasses to replace it. Also corruption may cause a problem. If you are short of shilelds then use it to create workers in a 2 turn cycle and mine the final cow for the 3rd city to use for creating units.

I don't think you can build the colossus as you are on fresh water (I know you can't on C3C, but this is the original and the rules may be different).

With a settler every 4 turns, along with a guard, and a worker every 2 this should be a good game to play. Don't worry about wonders, they are expensive and don't help you that much. Research alphabet/writing/philo at best speed and trade for the others with the AI's.