Good to see Amnesty International isn't backing down

eyrei

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From the New York Times:

June 4, 2005
Rights Group Defends Chastising of U.S.
By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
LONDON, June 3 - An official of Amnesty International said Friday that the term gulag in its annual report to describe the United States prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, was chosen deliberately, and she shrugged off harsh criticism of the report by the Bush administration.

The official, Kate Gilmore, the group's executive deputy secretary general, said the administration's response was "typical of a government on the defensive," and she drew parallels to the reactions of the former Soviet Union, Libya and Iran under Ayatollah Khomeini, when those governments were accused of human rights abuses.

The report, released May 25, placed the United States at the heart of its list of human rights offenders, citing indefinite detentions of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and secret renditions of prisoners to countries that practice torture. But it is the use of the word gulag, a reference to the complex of labor camps where Stalin sent thousands of dissidents, that has drawn the most attention.

President Bush called the report "absurd" several times, and said it was the product of people who "hate America." Vice President Dick Cheney told CNN that he was "offended" by the use of the term and that he did not take the organization "seriously." And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld called the comparison "reprehensible."

Amnesty has fired right back, pointing out that the administration often cites its reports when that suits its purposes. "If our reports are so 'absurd,' why did the administration repeatedly cite our findings about Saddam Hussein before the Iraq war?" wrote William F. Schultz, executive director of the group's United States branch, in a letter to the editor being published Saturday in The New York Times. "Why does it welcome our criticisms of Cuba, China and North Korea? And why does it cite our research in its own annual human rights reports?"

In a telephone interview on Friday, Ms. Gilmore, the second-ranking official in Amnesty, said "gulag" was not meant as a literal description of Guantánamo but was emblematic of the sense of injustice and lack of due process surrounding the prison.

"The issue of the gulag is about policies and practices," she said. "You put people beyond the reach of law, you locate them in facilities where families can't access them, you deny them access to legal representation, you attempt to prevent judicial review."

She added, "This creates the likelihood that the people who are there have nothing to do with criminal conduct or that it is a breach of the Geneva Convention."

In its 308-page human rights report, Amnesty International pointed to an "impunity and accountability deficit," and called on Congress to conduct "a full and independent investigation of the use of torture and other human rights abuses by U.S. officials" as a starting point in "restoring confidence that true justice has no double standards."

Long used to biting criticism, the group said this was the first time one of its reports had drawn the public wrath of the United States president and vice president, its secretary of defense, its secretary of state and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Ms. Gilmore said the response was telling. "When we see a government at this level engaging in rhetorical attacks and avoiding dealing with the details or the facts," she said, "we interpret that as being a sign that we are starting to have an impact."

Ms. Gilmore said Amnesty International has been working on terrorism-related human rights violations for more than two years. It was a natural progression and a predictable course of action, she said, to place the United States, a defender of democracy and human rights, at the forefront of the annual report of human rights violations.

The International Committee of the Red Cross, the F.B.I. and United States courts have criticized the detention policies at Guantánamo Bay, she said. In addition, Ms. Gilmore said, the detention policy has been expanded to apply to jails in countries like Egypt, Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. The creation of an archipelago of detention centers, she said, was another factor in the choice of the term gulag.

There has been no internal discussion about the wisdom of having used the term and certainly no sense of regret, Ms. Gilmore said, although the group has found the unrelenting focus on the word, and not the contents of the report, irritating. "On the other hand," she added, "we're getting more airing of our message than we would have otherwise."

So far, Washington's reaction has galvanized support for Amnesty International, she said. In the past week, the United States branch of the group has reported an increase in memberships, donations and volunteers.

The fact that the United States was prominent on the list came as little surprise internationally, she said.

"I think it's a dangerous game the U.S. administration is playing, to attack civil society in this manner," Ms. Gilmore said. "Civil society is essential to a robust democratic society. For the Bush administration to think that it's a legitimate political strategy to attack a nongovernmental organization of Amnesty's standing signals a ruthlessness that is deeply troubling."

While the substance of the report was defended by human rights organizations and others, several said Amnesty International had erred in using the word gulag, if only because it allowed the Bush administration to change the conversation.

"I think it was a rather serious misjudgment to use the term gulag," said Sir Nigel Rodley, a professor of law at the University of Essex and chairman of the Human Rights Center there. "The basic criticism of some of the problems are very real and it has given the administration the opportunity to divert from the substance of the concern."

Sir Nigel, who said that having been Amnesty International's legal adviser from 1973 to 1990 he represents the old guard, also said that the organization should have avoided using an inflammatory term that did not precisely apply. He also said the "lapse" lent credence to a growing chorus of concerns that Amnesty, which was founded in 1961 to lobby for political prisoners and has since expanded into the areas of poverty, domestic violence and AIDS, had overextended itself and lost focus.

Reed Brody, special counsel with Human Rights Watch in New York, said he thought the Bush administration had taken cover behind semantics. "We're concerned that the debate over the label is obscuring the real issue," he said. "That the United States is locking people up without due process possibly for the rest of their lives."

Personally, the term Gulag may be going a bit far, but it definately got peoples' attention. Note the bolded last sentence of the article. I think this is a serious problem, and the fact that the US government seems more concerned with making excuses and engaging in rhetorical battles over it rather than acting to put an end to this practice really disturbs me. In fact, it makes me sick.
 
Amnesty International has lost all creditability with him about the gulag comment and the refusal to apologise. In no way shape or form can the death of millions of innocent Soviet citizens be compared to the detention of thousands of suspected Islamic militants with access to clean water, decent food, and religious articles. Sure Gitzmo is a human rights violation but it is no way need the scale or evilness of the gulag system and to call it such degrades the humanity of the Americans and I want no part of that. I shall henceforth not be donating anything to Amnesty until they formally apologise. My money can be better spent elsewhere.
 
By calling Gitmo a "gular" Amnesty International as has lost the last bit of respect I had for them. Only those who have never seen a gulag would call Guantanamo Bay one. They show their ignorance and severe anti-US bias with comments like this.
 
"Gulag" is extreme - the current situation is nowhere near as extensive, and besides, the Gulag was largely for the Soviet Union's own citizens, not foreign terrorists. Still, that doesn't justify Guatanamo by any means, and I think no less of Amnesty International for making that analogy.
 
Elrohir said:
By calling Gitmo a "gular" Amnesty International as has lost the last bit of respect I had for them. Only those who have never seen a gulag would call Guantanamo Bay one. They show their ignorance and severe anti-US bias with comments like this.

Well, it's just a move to attract the public to this topic. A little controversy is in place.

And in fact, the principle (moving the captured persons in some camp, helding them there without international control, using strange methods of interrogation, denying them the access to lawyer...) of Guantanamo is similar to Gulag.
 
nonconformist said:
Eh, not a Gulag, but a concentration Camp.
And there is a problem with that? These people deserve to be concentrated.

Though personally I'm not one for taking prisoners...... waste of time and money
 
While it was selling us on the Evil of Saddam during the runup to the war, the Bush administration didn't hesitate to use Amnesty International to support its claims. On March 27, 2003, Donald Rumsfeld said:
"We know that it’s a repressive regime…Anyone who has read Amnesty International or any of the human rights organizations about how the regime of Saddam Hussein treats his people…"
The next day, Rumsfeld even cited his “careful reading” of Amnesty:
t seems to me a careful reading of Amnesty International or the record of Saddam Hussein, having used chemical weapons on his own people as well as his neighbors, and the viciousness of that regime, which is well known and documented by human rights organizations, ought not to be surprised."
And on April 1, 2003, Rumsfeld said once again:
"f you read the various human rights groups and Amnesty International’s description of what they know has gone on, it’s not a happy picture."

The rule here appears to be that Amnesty is a credible source for human rights violations of other countries, but is an unreliable and irresponsible source for reporting on the U.S.

These Rumsfeld quotes are all available from the Department of Defense at www.dod.gov - Transcripts.
 
nonconformist said:
Eh, not a Gulag, but a concentration Camp.


Yeah. It mores like the internment camps we put the Japanese-Americans into then a gulag.

I actually saw a Political cartoon yesterday that had a little desk with the words "Anti American Camp" And the words Amnesty International underneath
 
Hey! Amnesty International stole my idea. I have been comparing Bush & Stalin camps for ages :sad:
 
wilbill said:
The rule here appears to be that Amnesty is a credible source for human rights violations of other countries, but is an unreliable and irresponsible source for reporting on the U.S.

Too true, and very typical of administration and a disheartening number of Americans today.

Many groups and individuals can be viewed as a respected, dependable source of information or entertainment....until they dare criticize the good ol' US of A, however richly deserved, at which time they are violently trashed and demonized.

Some above have eluded to a lack of credibility they percieve as having to do with Amnesty International because they dare to question America's methods, but this attitude speaks volumes about their credibility in my eyes.

Good post and good thread.
 
Elrohir said:
By calling Gitmo a "gular" Amnesty International as has lost the last bit of respect I had for them. Only those who have never seen a gulag would call Guantanamo Bay one. They show their ignorance and severe anti-US bias with comments like this.

If taken literally, you just said that you already had almost no respect for Amnesty International. Why didn't you have any to begin with?
 
I maintain my respect for Amnesty International and thank you to Eyrei for reminding us all about their good work.
 
I respect Amnesty's findings but I still think the title 'Gulag' was a bit overkill. Makes me feel like im some sort of evil-commie as an American Voter. :(
 
eyrei said:
If taken literally, you just said that you already had almost no respect for Amnesty International. Why didn't you have any to begin with?

Because their a left-wing group who spends more time spreading anti-Americanism than humanitarien aid, as they've now demonstrated beautifully for us.


Let's Wiki it and compare the the gulags to Gitmo:

Guantanamo Bay

Gulag


Are those similer at all? No.
 
nonconformist said:
Eh, not a Gulag, but a concentration Camp.

I know people will think Concentration Camp and think of the Horrors of Nazi Germany, which they should, but the term originally meant a large grouping of prisoners under a large spectrum. Politcal Prisoners, Traitors, possibly people a goverment deems "racially inferior", etc. They would simply be put into an area to be kept. The Bay is that type of place except it is only for Terriosts and Alledged terriosts. I hope you are not refering to Nazi Concentration camps in your defination, because showing a muslim porn and killing millions are in two different leagues, in fact, they are not even the same sport!! By the way, 1000th post :) [party] :goodjob:
 
Elrohir said:
Because their a left-wing group who spends more time spreading anti-Americanism than humanitarien aid, as they've now demonstrated beautifully for us.


Let's Wiki it and compare the the gulags to Gitmo:

Guantanamo Bay

Gulag


Are those similer at all? No.

Did you ever once stop to consider that maybe the accusations they are making are well founded? Anti-American? Hardly. They simply are pointing out the same things that many other people point out every day. Gulag may have been a poor choice of comparisons, but if the only way you can refute what they are saying is by arguing that our detention centers aren't gulags, then you might want to take a step back and take another look. If they even vaguely resemble gulags then we have a serious problem.
 
By the way Eryei, thanks for putting a real source. I am not saying you usually don't, but some simply put up Blogs and Fringe rags. I know that Zulu and HamBab will have a field day on this post, but over the past year, I have noticed something in America. The signs of Facism. It truely concerns me. I do not think the prisoners are being mistreated, but I really want Bush's term to end. I know I am leaning left in this judgement, but it is the truth.
 
Damnyankee said:
I do not think the prisoners are being mistreated, but I really want Bush's term to end. I know I am leaning left in this judgement, but it is the truth.
I doubt that the prisoners are being generally mistreated on an everyday basis. I do think there's strong evidence that mistreatment occurs, though. My biggest concern is that, undoubtedly, a lot of the prisoners are guilty of absolutely nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A (very) few have been released after months of incarceration. I'm sure they had good things to say about American hospitality when they returned home.

I would think that most of the useful intelligence that can be gotten from these people has long since been obtained. At what point do the trials start? The penalties announced and carried out? I'm starting to wonder if the Bush Administration even knows what to do with these people. It's starting to look like they'll hold on to them, pass them along to the next President, then criticize any action taken by that President.
 
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