What do you expect from the AI in Civ 4

eaglefox

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What kind of expectations do you guys have from the Civ 4 AI. The Civ 3 AI has been pretty much stamped as stupid by everyone. Do you think that's how its gonna be in Civ 4 too? Or do you believe that the Civ 4 AI is gonna be a killer on the loose. The guys in Firaxis haven't said much about how the AI is going to play out. Are they cooking something up in their little kitchen, or are they trying to hide the bitter truth that the AI is just as stupid as it is in Civ 3?
I personally want the AI to be better at Diplomacy, Trade, Warfare, and so on and so forth. But better is such an arbitrary term. What do you guys think?
 
Well, in every game I have played, I have definitely found the AI in civ3 to be far superior to that of Civ2 (can't speak for Civ1-it was way too long ago), especially in Conquests. That said, the Civ3 AI does have its own set of problems, problems I hope will be rectified in Civ4. Namely this would be the speed with which a polite civ can go to declaring war on you-in spite of how well behaved you have been (though this might just loom larger in my imaginings than in reality ;)!)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
its not really that off topic. i wanna predict if the AI is gonna be better in Civ 4, which will be one of the most important deciding factors on whether i am gonna buy the game or not. i am certainly not gonna buy it if i have the feeling that i am gonna end up playing civ 3 with civ 4 graphics.
 
One pretty important thing I'm hoping for is that the AI can now handle alliances properly. As we all know, in Civ III the AI tends to ally with everyone against everyone.
 
I'm not really a fan of the AI in Civ3 and I don't see how it was an improvement over any of the previous Civs. The AI is way too mercurial to be considered good. It does not value trade in the least. There was one instance where I had been trading with one AI since the dawn of time and then it declares war on me for no reason. I've always said this but there needs to be more reasoning behind AI war declarations.
 
I hope the AI is improve, but then again new flaws or exploits would come up again as well...
 
yes, they should take care of the basic issues everyone has with the AI in Civ 3. It should be better at planning attacks. It should also be a bit aware of who its friends are and who are its enemies. and then it should strive to keep the friends and remove the enemies.
 
Trade and Treaties:
would like to see the AI to respect agreements unless external issues force them to break it (such as alliances etc.)

Military:
better use of combined forces and strategy to outplay the human. It would be nice to see the AI using their forces if they know that they can capture towns etc. In Civ3 the AI made some really :smoke: moves very often.
Overseas landings to be of value instead of dropping 2 LB's for example.

Wonders: AI using prebuilds as well to outsmart the human.

I think it is not so easy to programme a real terrific AI, but one that learns from the human player and adepts would be really great
 
Its need improving vastly. Especially how it just goes from Gracioues or polite to war over just about anything. Yes sometimes but not just about all the time. It also needs to understand what fair trading is all about sometimes what it considers a fair deal is total rubbish. Not the AIs fault its just governed by algorithems. It also needs to understand the concept of signing peace treaties, its totally losing a war it started but still demands stuff if you want a piece treaty. 20 cities later it just wants a little less. 5 nukes later it agrees to a basic peace for peace you ask it to leave your land and it declares again. Just to lose another load of cites. It just doesnt think at times. The hing is i player mostly multiplayer so i kinda forget about the AI being like this but its frustrating when i do play it.
 
There'll always be problems with the AI.

I'm confident though, that these problems will become less and will occur only in special situations. If I compare the Conquest-AI with the Civ-1-AI...there has been huuuuuuuuuge progress....
 
A short list of some of the most important issues that the Civ4 AI will hopefully address:

1) Diplomacy: In Civ3, everything is always for sale to the highest bidder. If you can pay for it, the AI will sell it to you regardless of any kind of strategic considerations. They will happily sell you both the last spaceship tech and the aluminum you need to finish the spaceship. It's quite common for advanced players to NEVER research anything themselves and buy every tech from the AI. This makes no sense historically and no civilization would ever happily give away all its secrets in real life. Civ4 needs to address this issue so that the AI simply won't trade certain things under any circumstances (like trading away spaceship techs when building the spaceship, for example).

2) Wartime Performance: On the surface, the AI looks like it can put up a good fight. But with some experience, it becomes clear that the Civ3 AI is easily manipulated while fighting; you can jerk it around all day with puppet strings and it will never catch on. (For a good examination of this problem, try reading this: http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/epic47.html) The fact that the AI will easily sign an alliance with anyone else, regardless of the strategic situation (see #1) only makes this worse.

3) Domestic: The AI is simply not very good at managing its own territory. I've written a fair amount about this in the past (you can read this for another example: http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/Epic48_750BC.html ). The bonues that the Civ3 AI gets at higher difficulty levels are truly absurd (60% costs AND a free settler on Deity?!) - better AI management of their own territory will allow the Civ4 developers to reduce the amount of bonuses that the AI civs get, and that would be a big step in the right direction.

If the developers can make progress along any or all of these lines, I think we'll see a better Civ4 AI. Gonna have to wait and see on that though... :(
 
Those are very good points, Sullla-particularly point #1. I think the best way to change the AI in regard to diplomacy/trade is to have them factor in things like Relative Cultural Strength, Culture Group, Religion, Relative Economic/Military Strength, and your reputation.
As for point #2, I am afraid that I am going to have to take your word for it, as I haven't seen it with my own eyes-but I confess that I don't really test it too much, or look too deeply into it.
As for #3, I do agree that I would rather see a strong AI in the absence of special bonuses-at any level. If you ask me, difficulty levels should relate to things like # of bonus happy citizens (for human and AI alike), base maintainance costs, the maximum size and scarcity of resources, minimum tech rates and the like-not what kind of bonuses the AI should or shouldn't get.
Anyway :goodjob: Sullla.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
The AI in Civ III was so-so. I expect the AI in Civ IV to be much the same. If anyone is expecting "Deep Blue" quality, you're going to be dissappointed.
 
I'm hoping it will be alright, but I expect it will be buggy.
 
In some ways, a good game and a good AI are opposing goals. A good game is deep, with deceptively simple rules leading to a wide variety of complex behaviors. Approaching the goal of complexity on a shallow level will create a game with a book full of complex rules, special cases, and distinct mechanisms. Something like that will leave any current game AI baffled. On the other hand, if the game is shallow, it will be relatively easy to program an AI that can beat it. If you can reduce the strategy down to a simple recipe, like you can on various levels of civ3, then you should be able to create an AI to follow that formula. A deep game would mean there is no perfect strategy, but rather something the human player can figure out intuitively on a per-game basis. Writing an AI to cope with that depth is a tall order.

My hope is that the AI will be able to play as well as a decent human player. The one saving grace of the above dichotomy is that the AI can apply brute force, making up with calculation the gap between it and human intuition. That may help explain why I am fixated on the game having a simple set of intuitive mechanisms. The game mechanisms have to be well-chosen, so that the right thing seems intuitive to the human player, and so they can lead to complex behaviors. The mechanisms have to be simple so that human players can understand them easily, and so that the AI can use its brute-force computation advantage to reach the same conclusions we do intuitively.

In other words, you can't separate the AI from the game. On the one hand, too much complexity in the game rules leads to an AI that can't cope, meaning the AI just has to cheat. Too little complexity, on the other hand, makes the game shallow and dull, and the AI too powerful. There's a tricky middle ground where a simple set of rules can lead to complex, challenging behavior. Think chess or go.
 
I think the AI will be good, but the top players will still find ways to run circles around it and find things that the programmers didn't think of.
 
warpstorm said:
I think the AI will be good, but the top players will still find ways to run circles around it and find things that the programmers didn't think of.
Agreed.

If people really want to test it, they should play it on their own and not read forums like this to see if they can beat it without the help of others.

Even for Civ3 I bet this would have proved to be much more difficult. How many people really noticed the AI went for empty cities when at war? How many flaws or exploits did people find out before reading them here?
 
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