educating your citizens

apatheist

Emperor
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Jun 28, 2005
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Summary:
Citizens should have varying degrees of education. More educated citizens produce more shields/hammers and more science (or commerce in general) than less educated ones. However, more educated citizens are also more likely to demand certain social engineering choices, less likely to be influenced by luxuries, and reproduce more slowly. You can increase the level of education of your citizens by building schools, libraries, and universities in your cities. Education is a slow process, however.

Suggested Mechanism:
Each population point has one of these four education levels:
1) Illiterate: can't read, write, or add
2) Literate: basic reading, writing, and arithmetic. Equivalent to completion of elementary school in the USA.
3) Educated: excellent reading, writing, and math skills. Equivalent to completion of (a good) high school in the USA.
4) Erudite: all of the above plus deep knowledge of some specialty. Equivalent to a baccalaureate degree or higher.

Greater levels of education result in the effects described above existing to greater degrees: increased science (or trade in general) and shields/hammers, decreased effectiveness of luxuries, increased preference for some social engineering choices, and reduced population growth.

All citizens start as illiterate. Citizen specialists in a city can only be chosen from the pool of Erudite citizens.

A School is an improvement that only has the effect of increasing education, but only up to the level of Educated. Building a School requires either Mathematics, Writing, or Philosophy. A Library increases education, though less than a School, and also provides culture. I'm flip-flopping as to whether a Library should still provide a research boost; if it does, it should be smaller than its current 50%. A University allows citizens to be educated to the Erudite level and also provides a research boost. All three generate culture as well. A Research Lab has no effect on education, just science.

You also need to be able to sustain your degree of education. If your School, Library, or University is destroyed, you will find your citizens becoming less educated over time. In real world terms, it's because educated people are dying and being replaced by less educated children.

The presence of a School in a city educates some fraction of the city's population each turn. This should be a pretty slow rate, on the order of 1 citizen shifting up a level every 5 turns or so. Libraries accelerate that rate, but only a little bit. Universities only affect education beyond Educated. The education level of new citizens is the average of the previous citizens. A city with 1 Illiterate, 1 Literate, and 1 Educated will grow to have 1 Illiterate, 2 Literate, and 1 Educated.

Settlers and Workers remember their education levels. The citizen of a new city will have the education level of whatever citizens were taken from the original city (either the average or the highest). Workers with a higher level of education will work faster. I have not yet decided if/how the player can choose which citizens go into building a Settler or Worker.

Optional:
Separate University into two improvements: College and University. A College has an educational effect, but no scientific effect. Perhaps a School can only educate citizens to Literate, while a College is required for Educated, and a University is required for Erudite. A College would be a combination of a high school, a community college, and a vocational school. With this system, a School would require Writing, while a College would require Philosophy. They could also be called Academies.

A citizen specialization cannot be reversed once chosen or costs money. The first might be a little too Colonization.

A citizen specialization takes 1 turn to come into effect. Switching specializations takes 2 turns. During either transition, the citizen is not working as an unspecialized or a specialized worker.

Justification:
I want a way to make the advantages of building a solid civilization more permanent over time. I want there to be a benefit to your civ being literate in 2000 BC that persists in 1000 AD. Right now, it's too easy to play catch up; if you neglect early building, you can just buy the techs you need, build the libraries and universities late, and, besides culture, you're up to par. One other way I've suggested for that to work is for improvements to have bonuses that increase over time (at the very bottom of this post).

In addition, numerous people on this board and others have expressed a desire to have different "qualities" of citizens with differing capabilities. Quality is too elitist-sounding and too hard to define; hopefully, the idea of education instead makes better sense to them.

I also wanted a way for cities to establish differences between the various types, and for it to be possible to capture those differences when you capture a city.

Other:
This is intentionally completely separate and independent from ethnicity and religion.

I don't know how specialization of cities will work in Civ4, so I don't know how this will interact with it.

If the game supported inter-civ and intra-civ migration, they would interact in interesting ways with education. But, again, we don't know if that will be in Civ4.

There should be a way to model the anti-intellectualism of Pol Pot, Stalin, Idi Amin, and other dictators. Perhaps some social engineering choices require killing or at least driving out your most educated citizens.
 
I would just like to say that you don't have to be literate to be an excellent musician.
 
This doesn't really follow the pattern of history. The pool of Erudite peoples should be incredibly small till modern era.
 
mastertyguy said:
I think it is a little bit too complex. But some of your ideas were good.

I try to spell out as many details as possible to make sure there are no exploits or loose ends to sort out. I attempted to format the post to separate the important goals from the implementation details, but I clearly need to refine my approach for that.

Lockesdonkey said:
I would just like to say that you don't have to be literate to be an excellent musician.

Yup. Musical training certainly helps, though, and I'm reluctant to have specialized improvements. I lumped everything into School or University rather than have one facility for training musicians, one for merchants, one for engineers, etc.

warpstorm said:
This doesn't really follow the pattern of history. The pool of Erudite peoples should be incredibly small till modern era.

Also true. However, consider it as a concession to gameplay. Also, let's not forget the religious scholars who were of great significance in multiple civilizations around the world. Perhaps a Monastery should have educational benefits.

Consider these three options:
1) Reduce the specialist requirement from Erudite to Educated
2) Different types of specialists require different levels of education
3) Specialization doesn't require an educational level, but the effectiveness of that specialization increases with education.

EDIT: As Lockesdonkey pointed out, those options are not mutually exclusive.

Additionally, perhaps you have a higher likelihood of spawning a Great Leader in a city that has a high level of education.
 
I would contend that different kinds of specialists require different levels of education, but ones with better education are more effective than ones without it.

So, without further ado, levels of education necessary for a particular specialist:
Entertainers: Illiterate
Taxmen: Educated
Scientists: Erudite
Policemen: Literate
Civil Engineers: Educated

Or in other words, I've combined 2. and 3.
 
I like this idea very much. It'd be very good to see education - which is after all one of the more important aspects of most modern cultures - factor in. Lockesdonkey's idea of combining the two aspects suggested earlier is a good one, and I think it would work well.

apatheist said:
If the game supported inter-civ and intra-civ migration, they would interact in interesting ways with education. But, again, we don't know if that will be in Civ4.

I think, given the desire in Civ IV for specialist cities, that having migration within your own empire at least would practically be a necessity for this idea. In the real world, certain places are famed as places of learning. This doesn't *need* to be recreated in-game, but if a town is meant to be piling out military units is it going to have time to educate citizens? Ok, now if your empire does well it won't matter too much, but if the war goes badly and you lose some cities, your citizenry could be greatly hampered by their lack of education. (Incidentally, this could fit in well with this here idea, notably the ideas on refugees.)
 
They've taken a big step toward migration, even if it was unintentional, by decoupling local growth from local food production.

Huxley Hobbes said:
In the real world, certain places are famed as places of learning. This doesn't *need* to be recreated in-game, but if a town is meant to be piling out military units is it going to have time to educate citizens? Ok, now if your empire does well it won't matter too much, but if the war goes badly and you lose some cities, your citizenry could be greatly hampered by their lack of education.

Units produced by an educated citizenry should be superior to those produced elsewhere. Presumably, a smarter soldier is a better soldier. That makes Barracks superfluous, though. Education shouldn't be the be-all end-all, after all. Maybe educated soldiers start off the same but are more likely to get promotions? I don't like that either.
 
You know, these are really excellent ideas that you-with a little help from Lockesdonkey ;)-have come up with. I also don't feel that they would prove very hard to implement in Civ4. Some additional thoughts though:

1) Perhaps education level could influence the maximum benefit you can recieve from investment in science-to partly reflect the resistance of less educated people to rapid technological change.

2) Better educated citizens should definitely be more valuable from a taxation point of view-irrespective of their specialisation (if any).

3) Education levels should not only be tied to the building of improvements, but also through civics settings and direct funding via a budget (IMO).

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
You know, these are really excellent ideas that you-with a little help from Lockesdonkey ;)-have come up with.

Awww... thanks.

Aussie_Lurker said:
1) Perhaps education level could influence the maximum benefit you can recieve from investment in science-to partly reflect the resistance of less educated people to rapid technological change.
Sadly, many educated people are similarly resistant. I think it's less about education and more about personality.

Aussie_Lurker said:
2) Better educated citizens should definitely be more valuable from a taxation point of view-irrespective of their specialisation (if any).
Would the trade advantage count for that?

Aussie_Lurker said:
3) Education levels should not only be tied to the building of improvements, but also through civics settings and direct funding via a budget (IMO).
The first part is an excellent addition. It's a much broader than what I suggested with anti-intellectual dictators. I'm not so sure about direct funding of education through the budget; isn't that what the improvements are for?
 
Well, i would agree. But with a small variation. Culture is a form of understanding the educations of the people to some level. I think war like players should be penalized for not having culture, makeing their Civs less educated and less efficiant.

This would work to the benifit of the cultural civs, their civilizans would become more educated and more effective.
 
I'm conflicted about that suggestion. War-like players don't have culture in the arts and music sense, but they still have a culture of sorts in their martial outlook. Take Sparta, for instance, or the Prussians. I'm also worried that it would make education too powerful, as a civ that has high education would likely have high culture as well. If culture further enhanced education, that would be one highly educated civ.
 
apatheist said:
More educated citizens produce more shields/hammers and more science (or commerce in general) than less educated ones

In Civ games, unhappy citizens and specialists have that sort of effect already. If the number of unhappy citizens outnumbers the number of happy citizens, disorder results affecting productivity (production & science).

The greater the population in a city, the more unhappy citizens appear. One of the issues that make societies unhappy is how they manage education with population growth. In game terms, illiteracy is due to lack of proper management of this issue, resulting in unhappy citizens. There is a connection between education and unhappiness, not just very apparent in the game in regards to its population. I'm not saying its the only cause of unhappiness, just one factor that contributes to it. I hope you see the link I'm trying to illustrate here.

Specialists add to their specific area, (i.e. Scientists = more commerce towards science, Taxman = more commerce towards treasury, etc.)
It's safe to assume all specialists are educated, each one being better in their fields of study.

Improvements such as a Library increases research (an effect of education). Additionally, it produces culture (also an effect of education)

IMO, education is already appropriately addressed in any game of Civilization but I'll admit, the proposed idea is very flexible and adds variety in how cities are managed. As a player, I'm not opposed to any ideas that could improve the game even if it adds additional micro-managing aspects.

I'll sit on the fence on this one since I have mixed feelings about the idea ;)


@ThePersian & @apatheist
How about making "Militaristic" Civs gain culture when they build "Militaristic Improvements"?
This could easily be applied to the other Civilization properties

Some examples ...

- Barracks give culture bonus ONLY to Militaristic Civs
- Granaries give culture bonus ONLY to Agricultural Civs
- Harbors give culture bonus ONLY to Sea-faring Civs

-Pacifist-
"Patience is a virtue, or so I'm told" :p
 
What are you going to do when all your citizens become too educated? None of them will want to work in factories or on farms. They'll get unhappy when there aren't enough "good" jobs for them all.
 
Even now, not every body goes to university. To me, being educated doesn't mean nobody will work in farms, just less. A part of this is, in civ, totally irealistic. When you look at a New York built in civ, it will have lots of farmers, but in RL, it is nowhere near that. I think that more you are educated, more your poeple will become (by themselves if you have a "free" kind of civic) specialist, but every tile would be used in a better way. It is not true that the tile that produced 3 food in 1000 BC will still produce 3 in 1700 AD. Same thing with shields.

EDIT 888 post
 
Pacifist said:
In Civ games, unhappy citizens and specialists have that sort of effect already. If the number of unhappy citizens outnumbers the number of happy citizens, disorder results affecting productivity (production & science).
Kind of, but it's pretty different. As I recall, unhappy citizens don't work any more or less than happy citizens. Also, happiness factors into a different set of things. Specialists are different because they do different things, as opposed to doing the same things better. It's too easy to switch a citizen from specialist to citizen to some other kind of specialist. Finally, education as described above has a lasting effect. You build up the education of a city and that's an advantage that accumulates and endures. On the other hand, if you make an unhappy person happy with an entertainer, as soon as you turn off that entertainer, they're right back to being unhappy.

Pacifist said:
One of the issues that make societies unhappy is how they manage education with population growth. In game terms, illiteracy is due to lack of proper management of this issue, resulting in unhappy citizens. There is a connection between education and unhappiness, not just very apparent in the game in regards to its population. I'm not saying its the only cause of unhappiness, just one factor that contributes to it. I hope you see the link I'm trying to illustrate here.
That's a pretty tenuous link. Most people don't care about education beyond its economic benefits. If you eliminated those, most people wouldn't care to pursue an advanced education. That's why I want education to be separate, and why education does have economic benefits.

Pacifist said:
Specialists add to their specific area, (i.e. Scientists = more commerce towards science, Taxman = more commerce towards treasury, etc.)
It's safe to assume all specialists are educated, each one being better in their fields of study.
But how do they study? A podunk hamlet can have a scientist just as much as a thriving metropolis.

Pacifist said:
IMO, education is already appropriately addressed in any game of Civilization
Er... the only things remotely related are scientific progress and the demographics screen.

Pacifist said:
Some examples ...

- Barracks give culture bonus ONLY to Militaristic Civs
- Granaries give culture bonus ONLY to Agricultural Civs
- Harbors give culture bonus ONLY to Sea-faring Civs

I think the first has potential. The others seem a little counter-intuitive to me, though. Perhaps there can be Wonders that are enabled by events instead. These events would be classified by correspondence to particular traits, though any civ could build any one if they met the requirements. For example, the first time you win a battle against another civ, you get to construct an Obelisk. The first time you conquer another civ's city, you get to construct the Arc de Triomphe. The first time you switch from Despotism/Monarchy to Republic/Democracy/Communism/Fascism, you get to construct a Monument to the Revolution (probably doesn't work with social engineering in civ4, though). The first time one of your missionaries is killed, you can construct a Tomb of the Martyr. The first time you cross to another continent (a landmass separated from your home landmass by ocean), you get to construct Magellan's Voyage (I would replace Magellan's Voyage's normal duties with Prince Henry's School of Navigation or somesuch). The first time you spawn a Great Leader, you could erect a Column. Er... running out of steam here. Imagine other appropriate monuments to various religious, commercial, scientific, industrious, and agricultural accomplishments.

These would be like Great Wonders, in that only one civ could build them, but your ability to build them would depend not on technology but on accomplishment. As mentioned above, any civ would be able to build these, so if the Indians won a battle, they could still build an Obelisk even though they aren't militaristic. However, a militaristic civ is more likely to win a battle before a non-militaristic one, so they'd be able to build the Obelisk sooner.

Back on topic...

Ivan the Kulak said:
What are you going to do when all your citizens become too educated? None of them will want to work in factories or on farms. They'll get unhappy when there aren't enough "good" jobs for them all.

They would get unhappy if the model gave them a choice. It doesn't.
 
apatheist said:
Kind of, but it's pretty different. As I recall, unhappy citizens don't work any more or less than happy citizens. Also, happiness factors into a different set of things. Specialists are different because they do different things, as opposed to doing the same things better. It's too easy to switch a citizen from specialist to citizen to some other kind of specialist. Finally, education as described above has a lasting effect. You build up the education of a city and that's an advantage that accumulates and endures. On the other hand, if you make an unhappy person happy with an entertainer, as soon as you turn off that entertainer, they're right back to being unhappy.
Yes, unhappy citizens are just as productive as happy citizens in Civ games so in that respect, your idea does differ. All I'm saying is having many unhappy citizens can cause civil disorders, halting production in the city, so your idea is somewhat similar in that respect.

apatheist said:
That's a pretty tenuous link. Most people don't care about education beyond its economic benefits. If you eliminated those, most people wouldn't care to pursue an advanced education. That's why I want education to be separate, and why education does have economic benefits.
Hehe, okay, so the link is quite invisible. All I was doing was trying to tie the unhappiness factors that cause of civil disorders (no production) into your idea of having different levels of education (different levels of productivity)

apatheist said:
But how do they study? A podunk hamlet can have a scientist just as much as a thriving metropolis
Okay, so switching laborers to specialists is quite easy, making it a little bit confusing on how they receive the education required to become those specialists. Perhaps this could be addressed by making certain specialists available only to cities that have certain improvements built (i.e. building Universities allows Scientists, etc.)

apatheist said:
Er... the only things remotely related are scientific progress and the demographics screen
LOL - What I meant when I said Civilization games already addressed Education appropriately is not from in-game mechanics but from researching Techs and building improvements with educational value that boosts the research rate.

apatheist said:
I think the first has potential. The others seem a little counter-intuitive to me, though. Perhaps there can be Wonders that are enabled by events instead
Those suggestions were just ideas that came to me at the time I was replying. I never really put much thought into those ideas hehe. Your idea does sound well thought out though. It think it just needs a little more ironing out

-Pacifist-
"Learning from our mistakes is sometimes more valuable than learning to avoid making mistakes"
 
Pacifist said:
LOL - What I meant when I said Civilization games already addressed Education appropriately is not from in-game mechanics but from researching Techs and building improvements with educational value that boosts the research rate.

There's a big difference between education and scientific research.
 
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