C3C PBEM: Alba II - Great Armada scenario

* Game full *

Welcome to Alba II - named this way since I believe we will play with similar alliances as the original Great Armada scenario (and because I have no knowledge of the battle names involved!)

The game is based on LouLong's excellent Great Armada scenario which can be downloaded here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104091

We are waiting for Lou to finish version 2.1 which is what we will be playing.

The original Alba was a great success overall. We started out with 8 players, but had many delays and people dropping out. Eventually we moved to a total of 5 players controlling all 8 countries, which worked out well, and we had quick turnarounds (a full round per day). Hopefully we can achieve a nice pace with this game as well.

The players are:

Akots
Ironduck
Loulong
Semental
Hawklord

The countries are:

Spain
Maghrib
France
League
Netherlands
England
Scotland
Ireland

The following order and countries has been assigned:

Akots - France and Maghrib
Lou - Scotland
Duck - Spain
Hawk - England and Netherlands
Semental - The French League and Ireland

SPECIAL RULES: (Carried over from Alba)
- no city razing or abandoning. Selling all improvements is authorized.
- 1st turn no fight
- First 5 turns no alliance with Scotland (Scotland can attack whoever it wants though).
- No ship bombardment of land improvements (roads, mines, and irrigation). Ships can of course still bombard each other as well as units and cities.

Just checking in. I have no preference yet. Need to play a couple of games against AI first probably to see how it goes.

Special rules sound very reasonable.

I'm personally avoiding playing anymore until we start this multi, it's kinda fun not knowing exactly what the opponents have and such, since Lou changed things a bit since the version for Alba.

Basically the overall view is that: Spain is the big juggernaut, but with lots of trouble keeping the old empire together. France and League are weak remnants of a battered France, Netherlands are rich but small, with potential due to their economics. England can build a great empire but has to assert itself first. Scotland is a real joker which can be wiped out or become a major power. Ireland and Maghrib are mainly 'the stone in the shoe' for their relevant enemies, spicing things up and making it more unpredictable. Everyone but the Dutch have major financial issues that need to be adressed.

I don't mind who I get. I had one game as England. Pretty awsome once you get the navy built up.

Yes, they did cause some "shipping" problems in the last game.

I had fun figuring out Spain even though I was too slow a learner to do much good.

I am open to any civ or combination.

As stated elsewhere my PC is being fixed right now so no Civ nor e-mail and no Great Armada v2.1 either before at least monday.

I will follow the majority but I think the version Spain + Ireland vs England + Dutch and the 2 Frances in a local war could be more interesting as it would force Spain and England to meet directly rather than to battle through France. France and League are already really busy but if the others fight on its soil all the time, they are just as good as dead.
So if they are not in the main alliances (that they can still join if they want) the naval warfare becomes more important (Spain - England directly at war) while allowing France and League to be something else than battelfields for the others.

That'd also mean a 6th player...

Lou - I don't see how France and League were just battlefields for others. Sure, lots of fighting is concentrated there, but with those two as active participants! And just as much fighting took place outside France in Alba.

England was fighting in Ireland at first. Then Scotland and Ireland were fighting in England. The Dutch were fighting in Scotland. England was fighting in Scotland. League was fighting in England (briefly). Scotland was fighting in the Netherlands. Maghrib was fighting in Spain. Spain was fighting in Africa. And that's just all the fighting that took place *outside* France!

In France League and French were fighting. Dutch and League. Maghrib and League. Spain and France. Ireland and France. So most fighting in France involved one of the two French nations, it wasn't just serving as someone else's playground. Also, remember who won? Netherlands+France+Maghrib, with France covering a large part of the map - hardly 'as good as dead'!

The reason England never invaded Spain was simply that they had their hands full with Scotland! You played England yourself in the end, how many units did you have ready for a big Spanish invasion? Not many I assume

I think naval warfare was already majorly important, I've never built as many warships (and had them destroyed as quickly) as I did with the Scots, I just couldn't build enough transports to invade. The Irish built a ton of transports and invaded several times. The Dutch were patrolling the seas like mad. Before the English were destroyed they had the mightiest fleet, but they had no troops so they used it to fight their local enemies instead. And then there's the whole Spain-Maghrib-France naval war.

Did I play another game than Lou?

Oh, and a 6th player? I'm against that, remember how badly Alba stalled until we got down to five?

First, I would like to say it is Lou's game and rather than just being up to the group, I am sure we would accept his final decision.

That said, I am sure we can still play a couple of civs even with locked alliances. As he proposes it, there would be 4 independants. How is this:

Spain-Ireland
Netherlands-Maghrib
Scotland-League
England
France

My only issue with not including the French in the alliance is that Spain does need an ally and I am not sure that Ireland measures up as much of one. Of course that can be negotiated but that opens the door to treachery - which is good or bad depending on the designer's intent.

Spain could be royally screwed without any other allies than Ireland

Semental, your suggestion with Scotland-League is a no-go in my opinion because that ties Scotland up on an allied side without getting any particular benefits from it (it's a pretty odd alliance for Scotland, and if they should be in a locked alliance from the start it ought to be on the protestant side historically speaking I believe..).

Of course Lou can decide the alliance setup, or we could just vote on it or something..

I am not gonna impose my will at all. And I agree with 5 being a good number so we can stick to verison a.

On the other hand Ironduck, we definitey played the same game but if France had a major holding at the end you know very well it was not because it was strong (nor because I played it well actually !) but because of the Dutch.
What annoys me slightly in this version is that Spain, instead of fighting England and the Dutch (therefore needing sea power) can just land in SW France and try to go inland (it just needs some transports near the Pyrenees). Spain was unlucky when it tried a small lending (that was before Semental took over) but that can reall unabalance the game if you have Spain + League vs France. Now during that time England could become powerful which means alliances can keep the same abalance but France will be a pain to play. Of course I limited the production of tercios which should prevent a major tercio landing in SW France. So we can try version a again.

BTW Ironduck the curent SG (which can be of interest to you as they are playing Spain : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=127499 ) made me realize why musketman did not upgrade so that will be corrected in v2.1.

Lou, I think our game is hard to use as a standard for how this alliance setup plays out. England never got to play much of a role, and Spain couldn't hold on to its presence in the north. Both of these things could play out very differently in other games depending on choices and players (I haven't looked at the SG, but will take a look).

As for the SE of France, Maghrib could help France against a Spanish fleet there, no? And in the SW England can do the same. If you're worried about France being too weak along the coast you can add a few defenders for scenario a.

Sure, the Dutch were the main power in central Europe in our game, but without France fighting League they would have been much stronger, and France played other roles as well (financially, securing victory points, holding territory).

OK, we will go for version a !
Indeed our first PBEM was not representative (England was completely ruined (don't think it was really a problem of balance so either you played like a god or Aeon did ver poorly (or both !))even before I took over; I could have saved the navy by making France give a city to England but that would have been a bit like cheating IMHO) and things have changed a lot in the scenario since that.

I would like to play the Dutch this time if possible. So we will still be fighting ! Arghh !!!
Edit : saw Dutch are played with England so I would go for the Scots this time !

Edit 2: I will add an extra place in transport ships (not war galleons) in the MP version.

Well, we could also set it to Dutch+Maghrib if that's better? Otherwise I'll write you up for Scotland.

Ok, if we could get ready for the first round.. Lou will be away a few days from Wednesday, but he says he should have the game ready Monday, which should mean we at least get one round played (given the first turns take longer).

No one else has made requests for nations, so I'll roll the dice soon. So far signing up myself for Spain and Lou for Scotland. If no one else has wishes I'll put semental for League+Ireland, is that too much semental?

I need everyone's playtimes in GMT. That is, at what time(s) of day you are around to play, not just the time zone you are in (which really doesn't say anything since you may play in the morning or the evening).

I can play on and off in the 15-01 frame GMT.

Lou, is it possible to set play order? Everyone who is pairing two civs really need to play them together to make the game move faster.

Usually around 23:00 maybe until 02:00.

I am fine with it. I had meant to suggest that we could trust someone to play both sides. But this works for me.

Does that mean you are kicking me out?

No, just keeping it to 5.

We won't do that until we play

I should be able to play rather oftem early morning US Central but normally, it wil be around 9-11 pm US Central.

@Loulong: whoever starts the game, just make sure we do it properly this time on the Emperor level. Detailed description of how to start a PBEM can be found in this CDZ thread:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1343

Well I'm GMT, anytime after 7pm until whenever

Hawklord, of course we're not kicking anyone out. In fact we may need someone to take Lou's seat in case he has to give it up at some point. I'm not sure what you mean with 'until whenever'.. is that until midnight or 2 pm or when?

Since I'm still not seeing any preferences I guess that means Hawklord and Akots will coinflip between France+Maghrib and Dutch+English, is that ok with you? Lou played France+Maghrib a good part of last game and it worked well. With Dutch and English being the same player England will probably be stronger since they can rely on more exact millitary aid.

I'm hoping we can keep a good pace with a round a day most days. The time table looks good for that.

I'll leave it to Lou to start the game when we have the details ready.