Negotiations with KISS

Robi D · Oct 11, 2005

Let the games begin, KISS has answered our message, i have told them i'm available tomorrow (same time as with MIA), so that should be fun.
hmmm...Maybe i should look at appointing some ambassadors.

Hail to the Foreign Affairs Counsul of the Doughnutians,

Can we schedule an IM chat? We have members on AIM and MSN. Please respond as soon as you feel is necessary.

Thanks,
Your friendly neighborhood Idiots

zyxy · Oct 11, 2005

Good work!

Good luck with the chat

.

EDIT: of course, KISS cannot see us in their diplo screen until the save gets round to them. So they will not know what techs they can trade and the chat may be somewhat undirected from their side.

I'm guessing that KISS is researching towards Monarchy. It's the logical thing to do for them, as they are religious, so they start with CB and they can easily switch between governments.

vikingruler · Oct 11, 2005

You mentioned you might appoint ambassadors. I would be very eager to participate as one so If you decide to I'm willing.

Robi D · Oct 11, 2005

Here is the chat log from KISS, i have taken out the chit chat parts to condense it a little, but all relavent negotiations are left as they are

Tubby Rower says:
How is life in Doughnutia?
Robi D says:
pretty busy, how are you all doing there in KISS
Tubby Rower says:
well thank you.
Robi D says:
good to hear
Tubby Rower says:
Can I add someone
Robi D says:
sure
...
At this stage admiral kutzov join the chat and we talk for a bit before negotiating...

Robi D says:
well we should get down to buisness, do you guys have alphabet
Tubby Rower says:
yes
Robi D says:
pottery?
Tubby Rower says:
yup
admiral kutzov says:
yes bidness
Tubby Rower says:
do you have the Wheel?
Robi D says:
hmm, writing
Robi D says:
no, we dont have wheel
Tubby Rower says:
uh uh... tit for tat
Tubby Rower says:
how about WC?
Robi D says:
no
Tubby Rower says:
Writing will be ours ifew turns
Robi D says:
ok
admiral kutzov says:
if tubs could type
Tubby Rower says:
i cna tpye
Tubby Rower says:

Robi D says:
do you have IW
admiral kutzov says:
no we are not the evil empire
Tubby Rower says:
yes we have IW
admiral kutzov says:
we do\?
Tubby Rower says:
yup
admiral kutzov says:
i missed that my bad
admiral kutzov says:
we're still not evil
Robi D says:
ok, i'll be back in a minute i just need to check something
Tubby Rower says:
What is it that you guys need?
Robi D says:
sorry, thanks for being patient, it a bit hard to trade atm since you guys need to have writing for CoL, but would a trade along the lines of Col for IW + WC be of interest
Robi D says:
we will have wheel in a couple of turns
Tubby Rower says:
hang on a minute
Tubby Rower says:
let me look
Robi D says:
no probs
Tubby Rower says:
how far past writing are you guys?
admiral kutzov says:
R, as a simple warmonger, embroiled in this diplo stuff, it helps if I know a little about u. quid pro qou?
Robi D says:
we have philo and CoL atm
Robi D says:
what do you need to know AM
admiral kutzov says:
native land?
admiral kutzov says:
in RL
Robi D says:
australia
Robi D says:
you?
admiral kutzov says:
OMG an OZ!
admiral kutzov says:
US
Tubby Rower says:
I'm from eastern US as well

.... at this point we get sidetracked for a while...
but during the informalities so interesting things come up.

admiral kutzov says:
R, your honesty is appreciated. we can now talk in the manner of friends
Robi D says:
no probs
Tubby Rower says:
Robi, are you guys headed toward a republic or a monarchy?
Robi D says:
technically im at work and should be doing this
admiral kutzov says:
so who wants to trade what to whom and when
Tubby Rower says:
If you need to go, we respect that and will shake hands and depart
Tubby Rower says:
until another time
admiral kutzov says:
tubs will trade me to u for a price
admiral kutzov says:
with glee
Tubby Rower says:
I wouldn't trade you
Robi D says:
Atm we have stopped going forwards as other issues have come up so were collect the base techs
Tubby Rower says:
maybe igor
admiral kutzov says:
lol
Tubby Rower says:
Do you need to go or can negotiations continue?
admiral kutzov says:
R, we'll focus now and be good
Robi D says:
no the boss isnt in today and there not much work
Robi D says:
so we can continue
admiral kutzov says:
cool
Tubby Rower says:
Let me scroll down the list of the techs we have acquired
Tubby Rower says:
BW, IW, Alpha, Pottery, WC, CB, Myst
Tubby Rower says:
Writing will be done in ~3 or 4 turns
Robi D says:
ok, we have BW, Alpha, Pottery, Writing, Philo, CoL and wheel in 2 turns
Robi D says:
I would have to check with everyone of course but i think they would be happy with a CoL for WC+IW swap if you guys are
Tubby Rower says:
we are looking to become a great republic, so the Philo and CoL would be interesting to obtain (my emphasis)
Tubby Rower says:
Have you guys had any other contacts?
Robi D says:
well we can do a deal with philo as well
Robi D says:
yes, what about you guys
Tubby Rower says:
yes
Tubby Rower says:
I presume that you have 2 other contacts?
Robi D says:
i'm cant say exactly, but you may presume
Tubby Rower says:
Why can't you say exactly? is there something that we are missing?
admiral kutzov says:
r, can we bring mistfit in?
Robi D says:
thats sensitive government information which im not at liberty to say, but i think you guys would have a fair idea of the map so i think you can work out that we have met others (im sure they know about MIA and TNT but i wanted to have a little fun)
Robi D says:
yeah sure

Mistfit has been added to the conversation.

Tubby Rower says:
That's fine.
Tubby Rower says:
This is Mistfit, our artist extraordinaire
Mistfit says:
Hello
Robi D says:
hi misfit
admiral kutzov says:
dont forget the t
Tubby Rower says:
the middle 't'
Tubby Rower says:
so IW & WC for CoL
Mistfit says:
Don't worry about it... I don't
Tubby Rower says:
What for Philo?
Robi D says:
ok, just to throw it out there, philo for CB + myst
Mistfit says:
Robi what is your nick on CFC?
Robi D says:
its Robi D
Mistfit says:
hmm not seen you around... I don't get out much
Mistfit says:
how long have you been at CFC?
Robi D says:
oh about 6 months i think
Tubby Rower says:
I guess it is proposed that this deal will go down once we obtain Writing?
Mistfit says:
cool
Robi D says:
yes, once you have writing if your happy to we can do a CoL + Philo for IW + WC + CB + Myst
Tubby Rower says:
Do you need to take it back to your team?
Robi D says:
i eould of course have to check with everyone, but since the swap is equal in research time i think they will agree
Tubby Rower says:
OK.
Robi D says:
are you guys happy with that deal
Tubby Rower says:
It will be a couple of turns yet before it can be execute
Tubby Rower says:
*executed
Tubby Rower says:
yes it seems fair
Robi D says:
thats ok, we have a couple of turns b4 wheel finished
Tubby Rower says:
Do you guys have a research plan after this deal is done?
Mistfit says:
I'm happy... but that could be due to liquid encouragement
Robi D says:
well if you guys except the deal, we would go for HB riding
Robi D says:
do you guys need to take this back to your team
admiral kutzov says:
no we're anarchists with almost equal power
admiral kutzov says:
we can do this deal now
Mistfit says:
Maybe he thinks before he types
Robi D says:
ok, lol, well i would be 99% certain doughnut will be happy, but i still have to check, if you want i can agree in principle now, and send you a formal agreement in a day or so when everyones had there say
admiral kutzov says:
sounds like a plan
Robi D says:
ok, i would shake your hands but its a bit difficult being 9000kms away
admiral kutzov says:
R, which vintage of OZ brew shall we hoist to your good health?
Robi D says:
coopers, it the best by far
Mistfit says:
You are from Australia?
Robi D says:
yes i am
Mistfit says:
Do you know of a drink called "Crippled Cock" ?
Robi D says:
fosters is crap
admiral kutzov says:
before u go, a question?
Robi D says:
sure
admiral kutzov says:
u at war with the evil empire, tnt? (What a surprise, they know too)
Robi D says:
yes, we had the displeasure of running into them
admiral kutzov says:
provo almost got me banned
Mistfit says:
He has that effect on many
Robi D says:
yeah i saw all the posts
admiral kutzov says:
good
Mistfit says:
what was the outcome? were blows traded?
Robi D says:
well we met, we discussed trades, they they attacked us, i got the feeling it was because of the whole renaming issue, that they got pissed off
Robi D says:
not that we accussed them of anything
admiral kutzov says:
stupid of the to start a war
admiral kutzov says:
of them
Mistfit says:
I'm glad someone took them down a notch
Robi D says:
well, it should be interesting, since we met in the middle of nowhere who is going to get the upper hand (They dont need to know about the whole cruller issue)
Mistfit says:
We in the future would be interested in helping with that
Mistfit says:
We are not big fans of TNT
Robi D says:
we will keep that in mind

... at this point we say our good bye and they also make it quite clear they don't like TNT, could prove to be very useful

Robi D · Oct 11, 2005

So there you have it, the deal is

CoL + Philo FOR IW + WC + Myst + CB

This goes way beyond anything MIA is offering. The will take place when they have writing which is three turns, which fit in well as it will take us the same time to research wheel.

In my humble opinion i would say yes to this deal asap, as you can see they have agreed to it and its the best thing going by far.

If you agree to just say yes below i can send a formal agreement to them tomorrow

DaveShack · Oct 12, 2005

Can we offer writing for their remaining beaker cost in cash or gpt, to speed the deal along?

We get the better of the deal by a slim margin...

Philo+CoL ~= 417
IW + WC + Myst + CB ~= 450

They have telegraphed that they will start immediately on Republic. If we decide to research HBR after Wheel, we should start thinking about what we'll need to give for Republic, or face the prospect of having to research it ourselves.

DaveShack · Oct 12, 2005

Or how about this:

If we can give both KISS and MIA just CoL for half the techs each, then we keep the Philo monopoly and we don't let either one beat us to Republic.

Robi D · Oct 12, 2005

You make a valid point daveshack, however the problem is atm MIA, its been some 5 turns of negotiations and a deal hasn't been done. If fact atm they are split on whether to offer their completely one sided deal to us or accept our offer which is still in their favour, which means more than likely any deal for CoL could take another 5 turns to work out which just continues delay our research. Also if we just trade IW + WC with KISS, MIA doesn't have anything to offer us except CB. Where as with KISS we have come to an in principle agreement in one talk! So with the KISS deal, it just a matter of us putting pen to paper so to speak.

Also if we do the deal with KISS we have 3 techs (Philo, CoL and Myst) that MIA don't and they have nothing to offer us in return, which gives us the upper hand in negotiations with them, since it can give us influence over what they research next.

Next two comment the KISS team made during the talks kind of stick in my mind and they were;

Tubby Rower says:
Do you guys have a research plan after this deal is done?

and

Mistfit says:
We in the future would be interested in helping with that
Mistfit says:
We are not big fans of TNT

This leads me to believe they would be happy to get into a tech partnership if they get the trade, so then if they were to start research on republic, i think we could come to an arrangement where we would research at the same time something like HB riding, Mason, Maths and Lit as quick as they do Rep. and do a trade with them this way.

This would give us the upper hand because we would have an oppertunity to convince MIA to research one of those techs to swap for one of ours, meaning we could spend time on min research collecting gold while KISS do the Rep.

In the end even if this means KISS ends up getting Rep before us, that isn't the worst thing, because
1. They are the furthest away from us and on a different continent

2. At the moment there sympathetic to us because they REALLY don't like TNT and are more likely to give us good trade deals in the short term, also if there was a team that would join us in the war with TNT it would be them.

3. As mentioned above i think we could work out a trade deal where by they research Rep. while we do other techs to swap for it.

Finally i can ask if they would be interested in doing a swap of writing for gold or even writing for wheel, so the next trade can occur sooner if all are agreeable.

zyxy · Oct 12, 2005

Interesting that both KISS and MIA claim to get writing in a few turns. Are they both researching it, or is their relationship not as bad as MIA claims?

I would not read too much in their statement on TNT. They may be more inclined to support us than them because of clashes with Provo, but when push comes to shove they may simply act according to the strategic position. Showing sympathy is simply smart diplomacy...

DaveShack said:
We get the better of the deal by a slim margin...
Philo+CoL ~= 417
IW + WC + Myst + CB ~= 450

I don't really know how you got these numbers, but actually, the base costs are:
Philo+Col = 6+10 = 16
IW+WC+Myst+CB = 6+4+3+2 = 15

On top of that, Philo and Col are tradeable, IW is not. WC and CB are not tradeable in practice as only TNT doesn't have it. Same may be true for Myst. Despite what MIA says, Philo and CoL are good techs as they lead to Republic. CB and Myst are fairly useless.
One of the reasons KISS is friendly to us and is happy with this deal may be that they are getting the best part by a large margin. These people may pretend to be stupid, but they definitely are not....

In summary, I am not too happy with this deal. I am not sure if we can afford to go back on it or try for a better one, we'll need some friends...
Perhaps we can try once more to make a deal with MIA. It would be a lot better if we only had to give up CoL to get all 4.

On timing: I would prefer not to stop researching, definitely not if no deal is set in stone yet. If this deal goes through, minimum delays require that they send WC+IW on the turn before they finish writing (when it's at 1 turn left). We can then return our techs, and they can accept the deal one turn later. If this deal goes through, we'll need to know when they get writing. It doesn't make much sense to make this deal if we have to halt research a few turns.

BTW: Mas + HBR + Math + Lit = 4 + 5 + 8 + 10 = 27, Rep = 36, so not the same value.

zyxy · Oct 12, 2005

Forgot to cast my vote: I am not overexcited, but I think we should do this trade.

On the one hand I agree with DS that we might be able to get more if we peddle CoL to two teams. Otoh, it might be fun to punish MIA a bit for their greed. Could lead to interesting team dynamics over there

One more thing:

we'll learn Wheel at the start of turn 49, if I counted correctly. Meaning we would like to have Warrior Code by then. This means the trading sequence should start on Kiss' turn 47, like this:

Turn 47 KISS: send Warrior Code, Iron Working, Ceremonial to Doughnut.
Turn 48 Doughnut: send Philo and CoL to KISS, accepted.
Turn 48 KISS: accept this deal, and send Mysticism to Doughnut, accepted.

This means KISS needs to have writing in turn 47, so that we can send them Philo and CoL. If they don't have it then, we should press them to send Warrior Code (accepted) anyway. Our research speed is high and we don't need the tech unless we get it early.
This of course means they'll have to trust us a bit, but similarly we have to trust them to send Mysticism at the end of the sequence, so hopefully they'll appreciate the symmetry

.
If really needed, we can perhaps make some arrangement with securities in gold.

Robi D · Oct 12, 2005

Republic is 28 not 36. I agree that it isn't the deal of the centuary but given MIA offer, its fantastic and its already been sighned off by them, unlike MIA which is yet to decide.

The other option which i forgot to add is, once the deal takes place, we can research HB riding and mason before switching back to republic, and end up not far behind because we can grow faster then them so we would be only a few turns behind them in getting it, also im not sure of this but does the research we have already done still count after switching? If thats the case than in this scenario, we could still get republic before them.

As for there relationship between MIA and KISS, MIA alluded to the fact that it wasn't the best, but thats not to say that its terrible either. If MIA are getting writing from KISS then i can't find a tech they would be reseaching themselves that they would give to KISS of equal value, masonry would be the closest, but i dont think its likely.

I am aware that KISS's friendlyness towards us is in a large part because we have what they want (a sling shot to Rep.) and small part because TNT isn't their favorite civ atm. But its an advantage we can use for now, they might not be interested in dealing with us after this, but like i said above we can still get Rep. shortly after they do and considering they are the furthest from us that impact will be minimal.

Another aspect of the deal i like is when viewing it from the point of view of the other team. Neither MIA or TNT would be happy with us doing this deal. TNT obviously because they are already behind us in techs and us getting further ahead and getting our MW online in 8 turns is not good for them. Zyxy said they were still an average military power to us, which means the total attack and defence points are between 0.8 and 1.2 to ours. And in this equation attack point count as 1.5 to 1, so the likelyhood of them having more than 1 or 2 immortals is slim at best, considering we only have warriors and one spear.
EDIT- i just rechecked the war acadamy page on the military advisor, hit point are also counted in the equation, here the link so you can check it our for yourselfs.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/military_advisor.php

MIA would hate the deal because at this point they have a tech advantage in some aspects, which would dissapear in the blink of an eye as they would be in a position of not being able to offer us one single tech whereas we would have 3 we could offer them. Another factor is that their is already a division of opinion in MIA about the 2 trade offers currently between us and them, which could lead to further division when they find out they lost a golden opertunity because they were too greedy. I mean we gave them an offer of CoL + Philo for only WC + wheel + IW in return. In any other circumstances they would not get an offer half as good as that one.

This leaves KISS as the only team that will be ahead of us but their advantage would be small, and since they are the furthest away, we can make that advantage up easily before we meet then on a large scale. Also with there large tech lead of MIA, there eyes might become bigger than their bellies, and they might see that as an oppertunity to take out MIA. If thats the case than MIA and KISS lose the advantage of not having to pump out units and its back to a level playing field, as they will have to divert resources away for tech and expanding like we have had to.

Sorry for rambling on, but this is my line of thinking atm and why i think this deal is in our interests to take.

DaveShack · Oct 12, 2005

Beakers are lost when switching, and we had about 55 invested (CA2).

I'm in favor of the deal with KISS, unless MIA comes in with an offer that would let us not have to give KISS both Philo and CoL. If we could do that then we'd be back in the tech driver seat, with interest.

DaveShack · Oct 12, 2005

Received via PM

To the great nation of Doughnutia:

We have acquired Writing this turn. Time has flown by so we were mistaken in our conversation last night(for us)/this morning(for Robi) when telling him that Writing was due in 4-5 turns.

We propose that the deal move forward this turn. Below is the procedure for the deal.
1. KISS will send Warrior Code, Iron Working, Ceremonial Burial this turn.
2. D'nut adds Philosophy and Code of Laws during their next turn and accepts the deal.
3. KISS will accept the deal next turn and send Mysticism already accepted to finalize the deal.

Please respond quickly in order to facilitate this trade between our two great nations as quickly as possible.

Your grateful camarilla,
Team KISS

zyxy · Oct 12, 2005

Robi D said:
Republic is 28 not 36.

Duhhh, you're right. I must have been sleeping still :blush:

The other option which i forgot to add is, once the deal takes place, we can research HB riding and mason before switching back to republic, and end up not far behind because we can grow faster then them so we would be only a few turns behind them in getting it, also im not sure of this but does the research we have already done still count after switching? If thats the case than in this scenario, we could still get republic before them.

Like DS said, the beakers are lost for good. I don't think we'll outpace the Celts, at least not by much. They are agri too, and probably have a similar start as ours.
A better option could be to sound them out about future trades, in particular involving Republic. I think we should go for Map Making (after HBR) rather than Masonry, it's a high value tech and monopoly. If KISS doesn't want to share Repu, we could still research it as second civ at reduced cost (720 instead of 840).

As for there relationship between MIA and KISS, MIA alluded to the fact that it wasn't the best, but thats not to say that its terrible either. If MIA are getting writing from KISS then i can't find a tech they would be reseaching themselves that they would give to KISS of equal value, masonry would be the closest, but i dont think its likely.

Perhaps KISS gets it from MIA, and they give Mysticism and maybe some other stuff we cannot see in return

. Or it is possible that both teams are researching it, which could explain KISS suddenly getting Writing (if MIA learns it, then the beaker cost drops).

This leaves KISS as the only team that will be ahead of us but their advantage would be small...

My only problem is that I fear KISS the most...

Oh, and please keep rambling

. The best way to get a sound team strategy is for people to post their ideas and rambles.

vikingruler · Oct 12, 2005

I think we should take the deal. The techs offered will really help us in our war with TNT, as well as helping us succed in the game. mysticism and CB will give us the oracle and temples major cultural advantages. We also of course get a lot close to MWs.

Robi D · Oct 12, 2005

I've come up with this response. In the absence of any word from MIA or any ideas for how it can be improved i will send it in a hour from now

To our friends in the great nation of KISS,

We have accepted the trade offer proposed between our two fine nations. We will give you Code of Laws and Philosophy in exchange for Warrior Code, Iron Working, Cerimonial Burial and Mystisicim.

The order you proposed, which is;
1. KISS will send Warrior Code, Iron Working, Ceremonial Burial this turn.
2. D'nut adds Philosophy and Code of Laws during their next turn and accepts the deal.
3. KISS will accept the deal next turn and send Mysticism already accepted to finalize the deal.

We are happy with this order, so you may proceed as planned.

Now that this deal is concluded, i would like to discuss another matter with you. During our discussion of the above deal an idea came up for further trade possibilities. You mentioned in our talk yesterday that your nation was interested in Republic. So if your next research goal is Republic, we would like a trade agreement in advance.

While you research Republic, we could for example research Horseback Riding, Masonry, Mathematics and Literature. Once everythings completed we would trade. We believe given our similar research capabilities this could be done in an equal amount of time. We would of course during this time keep each other informed of the progress at regular intervals.

Once again we celebrate our trade with your great nation and ask you to consider our proposal on the advanced trade.

Thank you
Robi D, Foreign Affairs Consul, Doughnutia

Edit to text in bold

zyxy · Oct 12, 2005

I would prefer to do MapMaking instead of Mas + Math. It's the same value, but a better tech.

EDIT: they would need the wheel before we can trade them HBR btw. So maybe Wheel+HBR+MapMaking+some value 6 tech (is that possible?) for republic?

Robi D · Oct 12, 2005

zyxy said:
I would prefer to do MapMaking instead of Mas + Math. It's the same value, but a better tech.

EDIT: they would need the wheel before we can trade them HBR btw. So maybe Wheel+HBR+MapMaking+some value 6 tech (is that possible?) for republic?

They have wheel.
I chose HBR since we need it for MW's, masonry would give us walls and maths get us cataputs which all help us with the war effort.

EDIT- But the proposal can always be changed if people think other paths would be better
eg. HBR + MM + Lit is the same value

EDIT 2- I made a change in the letter to reflect that other techs are possible not just HBR, Mas, Math, Lit.

Robi D · Oct 18, 2005

Well its been another interesting discussion with KISS, here is the chat log, condensed for your convienience (ie chit chat removed)

(... we start off with the usual meet and greet whomp and AK are in the conversation with me)
Whomp says:
we'd like to help you with wheel.
Whomp says:
We have some thoughts.
Rob says:
we already have wheel, it was finshed last turn
Whomp says:
good
Rob says:
we have started on horseback riding
Whomp says:
Good.
Whomp says:
Have you heard from TNT or do you have any interest?
Rob says:
not since our last battle, but atm they are asking for a whole bunch of techs and gold for a peace settlement, which isn't going to happen
(not completely true but they dont need to know everything)
Whomp says:
right.
Whomp says:
We have some thoughts on trading for republic.
Rob says:
ok, lets here it
Whomp says:
well we think you'll need cats.
Whomp says:
math
Whomp says:
after hbr of course
Rob says:
ok, so are you guys doing masonry now
Whomp says:
no we are running to republic.
Rob says:
ok i see
Whomp says:
we would like to give it to you
Rob says:
ok, just a bit lost, do you have math
Whomp says:
no sorry AK put up that picture.
Whomp says:
not the duck (obviously talking to him in another chat area)
Whomp says:
OK here's our thoughts.
Whomp says:
Research HBR.
Whomp says:
then maths.
Whomp says:
for cats. you'll need them.
Whomp says:
then currency for markets.
Whomp says:
by that time we can get in a republic and use the multiplier of markets

grahamiam has been added to the conversation.

Whomp says:
I invited one of our new players
Rob says:
ok, but we will need to research masonry as well as we dont have it
Rob says:
do you guys have mason?
Whomp says:
hbr first
Whomp says:
no we don't
Whomp says:
we will get it i'm pretty confident. (my emphasis)
(so they are trading for it and since we know thanks to zyxy "research" only TNT have masonry, so they have contact with everyone as well, means they have boats sailing around, well lets press on and see what they say)
Rob says:
it just mason is a prereq for math
Whomp says:
right I'm pretty confident we could get it soon.
Rob says:
is that through other sources
Whomp says:
yes.
Whomp says:
We are working the wires.
Whomp says:
it's tough.
Whomp says:
We hope to get it before you finish hbr.
Rob says:
so let me see if im following correctly, we research HBR while you aquire mason, then we swap, we then research math and currency while you do rep. Is that correct?
Whomp says:
yes.
Whomp says:
We may require something in return in addition because we would come up quite a bit short on that trade.
Rob says:
just out of curiosity, what are you giving TNT for masonry?
(i know he probably wont give it up but there's no harm in trying)
Rob says:
would gold surfice or we could make a further tech trade to even the score
Whomp says:
We can work on that. Think about it.
Whomp says:
Tech or gold but the key for you guys is to get cats in hand.
Whomp says:
Here's some very valuable information.
Rob says:
ok, i will have to take this back to everyone but i think its workable
Whomp says:
ok.
Rob says:
nice dodging of the tnt question
Whomp says:
Would you like some info on them?
(ahhh.. maybe it was worth asking the question)
Whomp says:
We would expect a similar favor in the future.
Rob says:
we pretty much know where they are and what they have, but if you have anything interesting to add, sure, but im not sure we can talk about map issues until mapmaking if i understand the rules of the game correctly
Whomp says:
favors are enough.
Whomp says:
you realize they have iron hooked up?
Rob says:
we didn't know exactly, but we assumed they would have by now
Whomp says:
they do.
Whomp says:
now you know exactly.
Rob says:
ok thanks
Whomp says:
No problem. We hope you will extend the same courtesy some day.
Rob says:
of course, we will try to help when you need it
(i would presume they would want info on MIA before going out and crushing them at some point in the future)
Whomp says:
That makes for good relations.
Rob says:
It does
Rob says:
just before we finish up, i had a look through the tech chart, as a way to even up everything an option would be for us to research MM while you do Lit.
Rob says:
its just for you to consider, anyway i will take the offer back to my team, so you should here from us in the next turn or so of the game.
Whomp says:
We expect it to took a long time till we get republic
Rob says:
we will have HBR in 4, so if you can get mason by then it wont hold things up, because we cant see how long it will take for maths and currency atm
Whomp says:
Sorry rob that was horrible english. What I meant was we expect republic to take a long tiem.
admiral kutzov says:
time
Rob says:
i understood what you meant
Whomp says:
we will work hard to get masonry.
Whomp says:
still butchered it the 2nd time.
Rob says:
no worries, ive butchered more than a couple myself
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
OK so that sounds good. We will keep open communication about anything you feel is valuable.
admiral kutzov says:
i've been distracting whomp
Rob says:
no probs, same here
Whomp says:
AK you're killing me bro.
Whomp says:
but you're funny so we keep you around.
admiral kutzov says:
that and the beer
Whomp says:
ok so we have some work ahead of us. let's keep in close contact since this save is moving fast, ok?
Rob says:
hehe, i leave you guys to it, i'll go and post the offer on the forum so we can give you a quick answer.
Rob says:
ok
Whomp says:
great
Whomp says:
we will do the same.
Whomp says:
thanks for the donuts!
admiral kutzov says:
sounds like a plan.
Whomp says:
I ate part of the one.
Rob says:
sure if we both agree then we should check in with each other every few turns or so
Whomp says:
my team caught me.
Whomp says:
right especially if you have hbr that close
admiral kutzov says:
i knew it. u r busted
Rob says:
no probs we have plenty of doughnuts to go around
Whomp says:
cool. it was quite a scandal at KISS!
Whomp says:
I resigned as UN rep because of it.
admiral kutzov says:
that's a whole nother thread
Whomp says:
so you say 4 turns?
Rob says:
yes, i pretty sure, i haven't seen the last save yet but it should be 4
(i have checked the save now its actually 5)
Rob says:
since we started research on turn 49
Rob says:
and its 50 now
Whomp says:
ok we will hustle
Rob says:
no probs, go luck
Whomp says:
ok good talking rob. Go get 'em!
Rob says:
thanks whomp, we will

So there you have it a pretty interesting chat. We now know that they have met TNT and are getting masonry from them, and that TNT has iron hooked up, but thats not really a surprise. The deal they are offering is;

Masonry for HBR
then
Republic for Math + Currency + (gold or further tech swap)

I believe we should take it as it will give us republic at the same time as them plus we get walls and catapults for our defences along the way.

What we need to do is improve the deal for us by trying to work something out with MIA since KISS don't seem to be trading with them. If we can get MIA to reseach something were not then we can get a tech up on KISS during this trade. For example we can try to convince MIA to research MM for which we trade mason and math to them.

There a lot of different permutations going on, but i would vote yes for the above KISS deal and get to work on leaning on MIA, so overall it ends up in our favour.

PS- I quick response would be good since MIA will have writing any turn and be moving on with research, so if we want to get them going in another direction, this would be the time to do it.

zyxy · Oct 19, 2005

HBR = 5, Masonry = 4. Again that's us giving up a point to the leaders of the game. We already did that in the previous trade. Again, HBR has high trade value, Masonry less, as TNT already has it.

Math+Curr = 22, Repu = 26. That's them giving up 4 points. Difference: 3 points (or 2, if you want to count the earlier one). Three points is worth 90 gold, we could offer a percentage of that (at most 50%) to make up the difference.

Are they doing slow research on Republic, or fast? If it's slow (50 turns), then we don't need to hurry with currency, and can perhaps just as well research republic ourselves.

MapMaking for Lit is another deal where we give up 2 points....
Team KISS is moving to an unbeatable position I'm afraid (if they don't have already). We shouldn't help them too much, and making deals consistently in their favor isn't a good idea.

I agree that we need to talk with MIA soonish. Our only hope of staying up in the tech race is brokering. Unfortunately MIA is far behind, but maybe we can convince them o do MapMaking or Lit. They already have writing for 2 turns.

Negotiations with KISS

Minister of (Dis)Order

Warmongering Fool

King

Minister of (Dis)Order

Minister of (Dis)Order

Inventor

Inventor

Minister of (Dis)Order

Warmongering Fool

Warmongering Fool

Minister of (Dis)Order

Inventor

Inventor

Warmongering Fool

King

Minister of (Dis)Order

Warmongering Fool

Minister of (Dis)Order

Minister of (Dis)Order

Warmongering Fool

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