Primative units vs Modern Units

The math equation needs to be re-vamped for units based on time period.

I'm sorry, but a longbowman fortified in a city can not take down two Cobra Gunships and a Tank.

I'm not a code guy but can a line be added that divides the power of a unit being attacked by a higher level.

Example useing Simple Math and arbitrary numbers

Longbowman= 6(base)+3(fortified)=9 vs units of same era
Longbowman=6(base)+3(fortified)=9/2 or 5 vs units of 1 higher era (tanks)
Longbowman=6(base)+3(fortified)=9/3 or 3 vs units of 2 higher era's (modern armor)

This eleminates the chance of an axeman destroying a mech infantry.

it also means whoever gets the tech lead would dominate too easily.

Eyemaze said:

it also means whoever gets the tech lead would dominate too easily.

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Well, the civ with the tech lead would also need to have adequate production (i.e., plenty of cities with plenty of hammers) to really dominate. And if a civ has superior technology and superior manufacturing power, and they dominate the world, I'd say that's pretty realistic.

SignalSgt said:

The math equation needs to be re-vamped for units based on time period.

I'm sorry, but a longbowman fortified in a city can not take down two Cobra Gunships and a Tank.

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I hate this so much and all the Civ games have allowed this to happen. I have lost tons of tanks to spearman in cities!

Eyemaze said:

it also means whoever gets the tech lead would dominate too easily.

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Show me one instance in history that this isn't true though?

Greeks, Romans, Mongols...

Merrimack and the Monitor

Horse Cav vs the WWI Era Tanks

B-29 Liberators vs B-52's or heck, even Fighters with laser guided bombs

In my previous example Longbowman, even if there was a formation of 30 of them they still can not put out a rate of fire with the accuracy as ONE rifleman with a modern era assault rifle.

classic stuff...

SignalSgt said:

Show me one instance in history that this isn't true though?

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The sacking of Rome in the 5th Century?

Oh and don't forget the Americans in Vietnam...

It just seems to me that they have defensive bonuses in place for cites and it does not matter what is attacking if the bonus is high enough the defender will win regardless if it is a Longbow vs. a Cobra gunship.

There is just no way around it other than to bombard and weaken the defenses with lots of air and artillery before sending in ground forces.

SignalSgt said:

In my previous example Longbowman, even if there was a formation of 30 of them they still can not put out a rate of fire with the accuracy as ONE rifleman with a modern era assault rifle.

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Well, technically A formation of 30 Longbowmen could bring down a Cobra gunship. If they got a half dozen or so arrows into the turbine intake it would wreck the turbine and probably cause the engine to actually explode. The chances of that happening are statistically low, granted......


However, I would like to see the crazy SOB facing down a Cobra with a longbow......



I am a new convert to the Civ franchise, so I don't know about prior games. But I don't think realism is as important as gameplay and 'balance' of play. I mean, Nukes are survivable......and the radiation fallout can be cleaned.

dpaajones said:

Oh and don't forget the Americans in Vietnam...

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Not really a fair comparison since your talking about two forces that had equal tech on the ground. U.S. only had Air and Sea superiority.

Had the Vietnamese used bows, then I'd agree with your statement.

Eyemaze said:

it also means whoever gets the tech lead would dominate too easily.

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Ummm, that's the point of the tech race, to get the benefits new advances yield. That is why we do the research, even the military. It is why the West was able to dominate the rest of the globe...

Don

Thumper333 said:

Well, technically A formation of 30 Longbowmen could bring down a Cobra gunship. If they got a half dozen or so arrows into the turbine intake it would wreck the turbine and probably cause the engine to actually explode. The chances of that happening are statistically low, granted......

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Actually the Cobra - and most other attack helicopters as well - could wipe out most of the longbowmen even before they got within bow range.

Don

Actually the Cobra - and most other attack helicopters as well - could wipe out most of the longbowmen even before they got within bow range.

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Not if he was Rambo.

Shaihulud said:

Not if he was Rambo.

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Yes, the game needs to allow for Rambo(s). Besides, the manual does warn that archers fortifed in cities makes for good defense.

I do not think that a freaking guy with a wooden club should be able to easily destroy a tank. But you have to have limits. Maybe units from an age before (Assuming you are fighting units with units in an age directly after theirs) should destroy a tank and etc more easily. But not huge gaps.

i think people should use more math than sterotype when playing this game.

I don't yet have the game, however...

My main problem with Civ3, was not so much that a Pikeman would kill a tank in a 1 on 1 battle (a very annoying thing none-the-less), but more significantly, that each time the tank fights the pikeman it would loose some health.

Most annoying was when I had an Aircraft Carrier that got 'ganged up on' by 3 man-o-war's. Sure the first one didn't get far, but each time they took a health point and i think the 3rd one got it. Very annoying. - at least in Civ1, you'd have a chance of beating all 3 with no damage to health (since health didn't exist then)

Infact on the odds, the a carrier being attacked by 3 man-o-wars, it is more likely that the carrier would die than not. Very silly.

The Good news: - I made a little mod for myself for Civ3 - which Doubled the attack and defense values of all modern units (This meant riflemen and anything better). Ancient units were left untouched. Middle ground units such as Cavalry, Ironclads, Musketmen, they got a x1.5 attack and defense.

This made it very good. You might wanna compare the battle details with Civ4 to what i've done above with civ3, and make some sort of similar mod for Civ4, just to ensure the combat works nice.

Personally, I found my mod made the game very playable and enjoyable, wasn't unbalanced either, since it doesn't actually change say the chance of a tank beating a rifleman, so a really big tech difference is needed ie you have tanks before they have riflemen, for the mod to actually change anything. Much more satisfying. and also - riflemen (in civ3) are available without any resources so civs that loose special resources are no worse off really.

just some food for thought.

Thumper333 said:

Well, technically A formation of 30 Longbowmen could bring down a Cobra gunship. If they got a half dozen or so arrows into the turbine intake it would wreck the turbine and probably cause the engine to actually explode. The chances of that happening are statistically low, granted......

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to be fair, wouldn't you have to assume that the Cobra gunship unit represents 30 of them as well?

Actually, tanks did not defeat cavalry in WW1. Tanks played a very small role in WW1 and were probably not worth the investment of research time and money as far as their impact in WW1 was concerned; they merely forshadowed that the next war would be fought differently. Cavalry was out of use by the time tanks were introduced, because cavalry was beaten by the higher rate of fire and accuracy of modern rifles, to which a horse and rider presented too good a target.

SignalSgt said:

The math equation needs to be re-vamped for units based on time period.

I'm sorry, but a longbowman fortified in a city can not take down two Cobra Gunships and a Tank.

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OK, a longbowman has a strength of 6? (is that right?) boosted, oh, let's say 100% from various bonuses to 12...

A Tank has 28
A Chopper has 20

Are you actually losing these battles consistently?