@Fraxis et al concerning Spearmen vs Tanks

I found the following on another forum site, might not be a bad idea for CIV V or expansion or PATCH even??

[I've often thought they should upgrade the graphics of the military unit as the ages change, but, they maintain their present combat values from when they were created and their CIV IV experience bonuses. There would be era "triggers" like when someone hit's tanks or battleships etc. the game would automatically upgrade the graphic icons of all the other nations, so things like knights, spearmen, swordsmen, axemen, archers would upgrade in "graphic" to something proper for the era change.

This would then give the proper look of an infantry/cavalry defeating a tank or helicopter, even though it has the combat values of a spearman or whatever ancient model it used to be. It's the psycological aspect that a spearman shouldn't be able to defeat a tank, helicopter, whatever of modern times, but, it's really not the picture that is involved in the combat calculation it's the units combat values. Seems like it would be a simple task. Dunno, but, seems that would quell those that just can't stand that a spearman defeated a modern tank or battleship etc.

They could still then upgrade the "combat values" of the units as the game allows this, and the icon graphic would still look correct for the era.

Also something this would do would be to add even "more" to the fog of war, is that musket unit really a full fledged musket unit or is it merely a militia unit?

Think about it this way, when you see a charge of men or cavalry coming at you can you really tell which ones are "green" and which ones are "veterans"?? ]

Excellent idea......perfect for the literal minded among us

I thought so too. Maybe Fraxis will pickup on it also.

I like this idea. They do it with workers; why not with spearmen? They could change the image to a guy with a pitchfork. Or a guy on a horse with a torch.
Personally I was never bothered by the whole spearman/tank thing. To me it's just one number against another number, and the whatever small percentage of winning won. If you're basing your whole offensive on beating that spearman with your tank then you'd better rethink your offensive philosophy. Besides. In Civ4 I have yet to see another civ that didn't have at least musketmen when I got tanks. The AI is a lot better.

zeeter said:

I like this idea. They do it with workers; why not with spearmen? They could change the image to a guy with a pitchfork. Or a guy on a horse with a torch.
Personally I was never bothered by the whole spearman/tank thing. To me it's just one number against another number, and the whatever small percentage of winning won. If you're basing your whole offensive on beating that spearman with your tank then you'd better rethink your offensive philosophy. Besides. In Civ4 I have yet to see another civ that didn't have at least musketmen when I got tanks. The AI is a lot better.

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Worker graphics change when YOU get the appropriate techs. However what if you encounter a backward Civ isolated on an island with spearmen, while you have tanks? Should the spearmen graphics in this case be also changed?

Smart thinking. Mail it to Firaxis

sgrig said:

Worker graphics change when YOU get the appropriate techs. However what if you encounter a backward Civ isolated on an island with spearmen, while you have tanks? Should the spearmen graphics in this case be also changed?

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Maybe the answer to this whole thing is that people shouldn't just send one tank into enemy territory defended by spearmen thinking that they'll get an easy, yet cheesy victory.

But history has many instances of obsolete units fighting modern units, eg Impi vrs Rifleman (Zulus) or ironclads against frigates in the US civil war.

I'd say the inference of the whole Spearman/Tank issue is that it feels unrealistic for a spear to defeat armour, so I basically support the idea of a graphics change. However, changing the graphics won't solve the bigger issue, which is that of a unit so inferior that it shouldn't stand a chance at overcoming an overwhelmingly powerful foe. The issue isn't whether you were overconfident enough to bring one tank against a city guarded by three spearmen and lost, but rather whether you fought a completely random battle with a tank against a spearman and lost. So while changing the graphics addresses the issue, it doesn't completely mend what's broken.

I sort of thought the upgrade icon if it's not within reason to upgrade it to the proper era graphic, would be to give it a "universal terrorist" icon/graphic, this could work for any age in fact. At least it wouldn't look like a spearman or whatever ancient model that the civ hasn't reached the tech level to upgrade it for. But, the graphics change into a universal terrorist" graphic would work I think. I don't think many or any have a problem with spearmen in the middle ages, I think it's basically always been the modern age with the naval and tanks, but, I would probably put the event change in just as soon an "infantrymen" were researched.

If it was an archer unit, it could be upgraded to the universal terrorist graphic of a shieked unit with a molotov cocktail in it's hand. For foot soldiers, sword, axe and spear, it could be given the pitchfork look or scythe or torch or a conglomeration of all 3 to differenciate between sword, axe and spear and for chariots/knights, same simular looking unit on a horse still. Now we all can agree a "terrorist" just a SINGLE one can do an awful lot of damage, wasn't it a fishing boat that took out or at least heavily damaged a Destroyer in dock over in the middle east? And aren't small insurgent groups taking out military units (up to 2000 casualties last reported since we been in Iraq).

I know it's a game and I play it as such, the graphic of the unit fighting doesn't matter as I said, it's all about the calculation. But, on a more immersive point of view, changing the graphics at different epochs makes sense. Whoever saw Knights fighting Civil War Soldiers? (Infantrymen) or WWI soldiers?? or of course Battleships, Destroyers, Planes, and Tanks?

I don't know that we want to go the terrorist route.

Really - I don't know why people get so upset about this topic. It doesn't happen remotely close to where it would be a problem. Are you people that concerned about the extremely rare occurance of a spearman beating a tank? Does it interfere with your battle plans THAT much?

And you can't imagine any circumstances where a spearman might defeat a tank? I can think of a few. Tank breaks down. Spearmen cut the tread of the tank off. Somehow, the spearman hits his spear right into the little slit that WWII tanks used to have to see out of and kills the driver, who happens to fall awkwardly and the pin comes out of a grenade he is carrying. Tank blows up. Yay Spearman!!!

I've talked with some people who actually hate the game because of the spearman/tank issue.

There is something you forget here.. yes, it is a spearman defeating a tank - BUT... !

Even though the civlization you are fighting is very backwards/whatever, they still live in a world where other civ's (you) are forwards, which means that those spearmen might just have gotten their hands on some grenades or molotov's (See: Black market)

So if spearmen defeating tanks really bothers you, just imagine that the unit managed to get their hands on some sort of grenade

I seriously don't get why people have such a problem with this, look at your combat odds before you do a fight. In this game, a tank against a spearmen is something like 20 to 5, you should lose very seldom. But of course, people only remember those times when the right DOESNT go there way, then we get these kinds of topics here. Units are numbers, thats it. The better your unit is, the better your chances. Note:chances. How fun would the game be if you could kill a whole civilization with one tank because they has spearmen? Doesn't seem right to me.

I think you guys miss the point.
Unit graphics are symbols. The graphic of a spearman symbolizes an ancient unit which has no access to grenades, consisting of people who have never seen an auto-motive = self-propelled gun-carrying craft, manned with people knowing how to handle this thing.
Furthermore, the symbols stand for units as a battalion or a division. There is no way for a division of spearmen to defeat even a platoon of tanks, even less a battalion and for sure under no circumstances a division of armored vehicles.

The proposal as of the initial posting is just to do a masquerade to plaster a key problem of the game (that modern units could meet ancient ones), but as someone else already has mentioned, it does not solve the issue.

What you guys are talking about is that a Roman legion would have had a chance to kill off a US Abrams tank platoon. If you think this is possible, it's fine. But, well, at least for German tanks (Leopard) I would have some severe doubts this could ever happen.

The spearmen my tanks usually encounter tend to be holdover garrison troops the enemy never bothered to upgrade, rather than representatives of current level of their technology. I like to rationalise that they represent severely underequipped troops rather than ancient warriors with bronze spears. Think what kind of equipment the japanese were using or planning to use by the end of WWII when they were really starting to run out of resources.

In my point of view, some graphic updates on your older units as you advance to later eras would be nice, but that would take some work. The spearman vs tank aspect doesn't bother me that much, but the thought of someone having ancient bowmen and modern infantry in his army is another matter.

I was going to make a mod that would do something like the following for civ 3:

Each age there would be a generic soldier unit (and later on a generic high mobility unit) that ALL previous units could be upgraded to... including the previous age's generic soldier unit

It would be weaker but comparible to the current age unit (consider a slightly weaker rifleman - that you have to pay an extremely small fee to upgrade - perhaps 1 gp).

That way all civs would be able to upgrade thier existing armies to something relavent for a nominal fee as they entered a new age...

Commander Bello said:

The proposal as of the initial posting is just to do a masquerade to plaster a key problem of the game (that modern units could meet ancient ones), but as someone else already has mentioned, it does not solve the issue.

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And Americans as the are in the game weren't around in 4000 BC. And most older civilizations discovered The Wheel before 4000 BC. And Queen Victoria wasn't around in 4000 BC. And one person, no matter how great he is, cannot build the Taj Mahaj in one turn. And the world isn't really a big giant rectangle. And the land around Mecca isn't really green.

It's a game - not an accurate simulation of history and physics.

*claps*

heh, one can tell by most of the posts, many of you are die-hard males, because you have no interest in "cosmetics" of the game.

It wasn't a topic about changing the values or making it realistic, it was merely a topic to change the cosmetics of the game to have it look more inline with the era at hand while playing. Just like many games it would bring the illusion of political correctness of a unit vs unit for certain eras where this issue comes up about a spearman beating a tank. Nothing more was the intent of the origional post, no matter how many read something else into it.

Also, Americans sure as heck were there back in 4000bc, they had to decend from someone.

zeeter said:

I don't know that we want to go the terrorist route.

Really - I don't know why people get so upset about this topic. It doesn't happen remotely close to where it would be a problem. Are you people that concerned about the extremely rare occurance of a spearman beating a tank? Does it interfere with your battle plans THAT much?

And you can't imagine any circumstances where a spearman might defeat a tank? I can think of a few. Tank breaks down. Spearmen cut the tread of the tank off. Somehow, the spearman hits his spear right into the little slit that WWII tanks used to have to see out of and kills the driver, who happens to fall awkwardly and the pin comes out of a grenade he is carrying. Tank blows up. Yay Spearman!!!

I've talked with some people who actually hate the game because of the spearman/tank issue.

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I hope you're joking...