No Western Religions?

For a game often accused of being Eurocentric there's a complete lack of European religions. The best we get is a Middle-Eastern religion which came to Europe by conversion. I know religion is a flavour issue and not a game balance one but the choice of religions seems a bit biased. We have three Middle-Eastern monotheistic faiths and three Eastern spiritualities and Hinduism which seems to be the only polytheistic faith included.

Personally I'd like a little more diversity in choice of faith. I'm probably being Eurocentric but to me Judaism, Confucianism and Taoism aren't really necessary additions . Christianity and Islam being the two major religions of the Dark and Middle Ages are good inclusions as is Buddhism being the most recognisable of the Eastern religions and Hinduism is a good choice since it's polytheistic and not from Europe, the Middle-East or Asia but Judaism seems unnecessary since we already have two monotheistic faiths which have had a much greater effect on history and the same applies to Confucianism and Taoism relative to Buddhism.

In my opinion either the Greek/Roman pantheon or the Celtic/Germanic pantheon would have been nice to add a little more flavour to BC European civs. An Animistic faith would be nice too to add another choice in religous style, especially for African and Native American civs. Atheism would also be a nice choice for later civs even if it's not exactly a religion per se.

This is just a minor complaint about an excellent game but it irks me all the same.

Agreed. There is a pretty simple way around this problem, however, and that's to mod the religion names to refer to more generic philosophies instead of specific religions; for example:

Judaism = Monotheism
Christianity = Salvational Monotheism
Islam = Devotional Monotheism
Hinduism = Polytheism
Buddhism = Asceticism
Confucianism = Scholarly Ethicism
Taoism = Dialectical Monism

Under this system real world religions that've been left out could be covered under each generic name; so the example you give of the pre-Christian traditions of Europe would, obviously, be counted as Polytheism. I havn't got the game yet however - I live in the UK, so should have it by this weekend - so I don't know how easy that'd be... One major difficulty with this plan might be finding alternative generic symbols for the ingame graphical representations of each religion. The seated meditating figure from Buddhism would work fine as a generic symbol for Asceticism, but things like the Cross or the Ohm are a bit too specific.

I also think that the addition of Animism as another ancient religion and Atheism/Humanism (and maybe Neo-Paganism) as modern religions would also be pretty cool from a flavour point of view; but is it possible to have more than 8 religions? And even if it where, wouldn't there be balance issues?

Tarhun said:

Agreed. There is a pretty simple way around this problem, however, and that's to mod the religion names to refer to more generic philosophies instead of specific religions; for example:

Judaism = Monotheism
Christianity = Salvational Monotheism
Islam = Devotional Monotheism
Hinduism = Polytheism
Buddhism = Asceticism
Confucianism = Scholarly Ethicism
Taoism = Dialectical Monism

Under this system real world religions that've been left out could be covered under each generic name; so the example you give of the pre-Christian traditions of Europe would, obviously, be counted as Polytheism. I havn't got the game yet however - I live in the UK, so should have it by this weekend - so I don't know how easy that'd be... One major difficulty with this plan might be finding alternative generic symbols for the ingame graphical representations of each religion. The seated meditating figure from Buddhism would work fine as a generic symbol for Asceticism, but things like the Cross or the Ohm are a bit too specific.

I also think that the addition of Animism as another ancient religion and Atheism/Humanism (and maybe Neo-Paganism) as modern religions would also be pretty cool from a flavour point of view; but is it possible to have more than 8 religions? And even if it where, wouldn't there be balance issues?

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Holy bejesus. This is a GREAT idea.

I have the game, and it won't work for me, so I'm giving up on it.

But holy bejesus. A well-reasoned stroke of genius. This is the way the game should have been set up.

Hozchelaga said:

Holy bejesus. This is a GREAT idea.

I have the game, and it won't work for me, so I'm giving up on it.

But holy bejesus. A well-reasoned stroke of genius. This is the way the game should have been set up.

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er thanks, but there's a difference between having an idea and implementing it... I have almost no experience with modding etc. Is there anybody who does and thinks this idea could work, and maybe could help in realizing it?

Scientology is the only western religion I know if.

Can we add Jedi? That is a reconised religion in the UK now.

Ex-Cop said:

Scientology is the only western religion I know if.

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Ever hear of Asatruar and Wicca? Asatruar is an ancient religion (possibly older than hinduism) that was practised by the germanic and nordic people (keltic is derived from it), think gods like Thor.

Wicca obviously is new.

I'd like to see Asatruar in, it's an ancestral nature religion. You know, respect nature, honor your ancestors, that kind of stuff. Plus we'd get to have viking fanatics slaying taoists monks.

balearicrazy said:

Can we add Jedi? That is a reconised religion in the UK now.

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No it isn't.

And Hinduism isn't a polytheist religion.

@Tarhun, intersting idea, but possily a bit wordy.

uhm, yes, hinduism IS a polytheistic religion. it has many gods. thus making it polytheistic.

Draugr said:

I'm probably being Eurocentric but to me Judaism, Confucianism and Taoism aren't really necessary additions .

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Yes, you are being VERY eurocentric. Confucianism and taoism shaped the East Asia we know today, and have thousands of years of tradition. Likewise, Judaism is another ancient belief that, as the first monotheistic one, influenced highly the western world, despite a relatively low number of adherents. All three religions are very, very worthy of being in the same game as the other religions.

Hnduism is an interesting one. They worship many gods, making them polytheistic, but at the deepest level all gods are seen as a manifestation of OM, the all encompassing spirit.

Besides, eventually we can mod in all the religions we want, although the designers did point out the seven seems to be an optimal number.

Well, in reply to the topic title: can anyone name me 3 mainstream Western religions besides Christianity? This topic quite soon defered into a 'better' approach for religions. I have my doubts about it being better since I agree with the developers' remark that these 7 religions have proven to be the ones that are prefered by testers.

BTW: Humanism isn't a religion, it's just a way of looking at life. There is no global institution that tries to convert people to humanism nor does it have a leader or does it have 'sacred' meeting places.

lawine said:

uhm, yes, hinduism IS a polytheistic religion. it has many gods. thus making it polytheistic.

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Those Gods are repressentations, or forms of the one God, Brahman. Its like the whole Father/Son/Holy Spirit thing in some branches of Christianity.

Still, I can see why people find it easier to describe it as polytheist

Truronian said:

Those Gods are repressentations, or forms of the one God, Brahman. Its like the whole Father/Son/Holy Spirit thing in some branches of Christianity.

Still, I can see why people find it easier to describe it as polytheist

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many hindus worship lower deities, they don't consider brahman to be a true single 'entity', but more of a weird force kind of thingie. okay that sounds silly but hey it's the best explanation. they worship many different kinds of gods and the fact that they are all aspects of a permeating god doesn't change that. it's polytheistic.

incidentally, christianity is strictly speaking, polytheistic aswell.

And Hinduism isn't a polytheist religion.

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The reason why I suggested that the generic name to replace Hinduism be "Polytheism" was simply because that's what, looking at the tech tree, makes the most sense; that the religion to come out of the tech "Polytheism" should be called "Polytheism". That was kinda the whole point of my idea, to have religions that don't reference the real world - the debate on the polytheistic nature of the real world religion of Hinduism doesn't come into it.

And one other thing...

lawine said:

Ever hear of Asatruar and Wicca? Asatruar is an ancient religion (possibly older than hinduism) that was practised by the germanic and nordic people (keltic is derived from it), think gods like Thor.

Wicca obviously is new.

I'd like to see Asatruar in, it's an ancestral nature religion. You know, respect nature, honor your ancestors, that kind of stuff. Plus we'd get to have viking fanatics slaying taoists monks.

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Although it's a very nice idea to think there's this unbroken line between ancient ancestral religion and modern paganism, Asatru is not ancient at all. It's a modern neopagan revivalist movement, just like Wicca - although slightly less inclusive and eclectic as it focuses purely on Germanic customs. Germanic peoples never referred to their practices as "Asatru" or "Asatruar" or anything like that. The word is a modern construct meaning "Belief in (our) Aesir", i.e the race of Gods that the Norse Pantheon belonged to. TBH if anything Asatru in CivIV would probably best be covered as a Modern or Industrial age religion called "Neo-Paganism", if at all.

Identifying the original Germanic religion as being older than Hinduism is also a somewhat odd statement; I guess it all depends on where you draw the line between the two. In a sense they're both the same age as they share a common ancestor, the original Indo-European belief system. I also don't quite know what you mean by "keltic is derived from it" but Celtic traditions again form a seperate "branch" on the Indo-European tree. Not derived from Germanic, but sharing a common ancestor.

Ahem, sorry, I'm just a bit pedantic about things like that...

spacedragonblue said:

Yes, you are being VERY eurocentric. Confucianism and taoism shaped the East Asia we know today, and have thousands of years of tradition. Likewise, Judaism is another ancient belief that, as the first monotheistic one, influenced highly the western world, despite a relatively low number of adherents. All three religions are very, very worthy of being in the same game as the other religions.

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My point wasn't that these "religions" are not valid choices my point is that three Asian choices, three middle Eastern ones and no European ones seems to be a bit biased. Confucianism and Taoism may have shaped East Asia but East Asia is not the world and I see no reason why all three of the Eastern philosophies and the three major monotheistic religions have to be included at the expense of any other religions aside from Hinduism

And Judaism is not necessarily the first monotheistic one, Zoarastrianism may have been the first monotheistic faith although it wouldn't surprise me if there were earlier forgotten faiths which preceded either of them. Also Judaism in itself has not played any major part in world or European history except through Christianity which is also in the game (modern issues regarding WW2 and Israel aside of course).

Anyway I wasn't trying to demean these religions simply pointing out that not including European religions seems to be an ahistorical move and yet another reason why the new religious system is becoming just as much of a nuisance as the old pollution and disorder problems were.

Hyronymus said:

Well, in reply to the topic title: can anyone name me 3 mainstream Western religions besides Christianity? This topic quite soon defered into a 'better' approach for religions. I have my doubts about it being better since I agree with the developers' remark that these 7 religions have proven to be the ones that are prefered by testers.

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Greek/Roman pantheon, Celtic pantheon and Germanic/Norse pantheon, split them up to provide even more if you like (Next time specify modern if thats what you mean). Oh and if Confucianism and Taoism can be considered Western style religions with monastries, cathedrals and forming the basis of theocratic states then we can also consider atheism, agnosticism and Humanism religions as well.

As for being preffered by testers, that doesn't mean much to me since I suspect most testers had little to no knowledge of history and were more concerned with including the popular modern forms of eastern "religions" which probably have about as much relevance to the ancient forms of Eastern spirituality as Wicca does to ancient European traditions.

Edit: Almost forgot. I agree with Tarhun about the generic religions. If they're going to be PC and not give religions traits and give civs favoured religions they might as well go all the way and make them generic religious concepts. Maybe then we could actually have plausible religious effects instead of Buddhist theocracies converting infidels at swordpoint.

it might be nice to add and 8th Wiccan/ Druidism/ or Animism but I believe Animism is the dormant state before the others trounce down. Humanism could be a 9th. one. you could call it atheisistic. Wiccan and Humanism could be introduced.

Wicca could take place with Animal Husbandry. [no first line civs as some give these freely and wouldn't trip the founding a religion flags in the game].

humanism could be present with ? scientific method, or liberalism? communism?

Truronian said:

Those Gods are repressentations, or forms of the one God, Brahman. Its like the whole Father/Son/Holy Spirit thing in some branches of Christianity.

Still, I can see why people find it easier to describe it as polytheist

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isn't the top of the gods of hinduism a trintity? Brahman, Vishnu, and Shiva?

there's Ganesh, and several other minor ones off hand that I recall.

Christianity is a European religion. It was born inside a European empire, it is very European in culture: it is European. Exact location is irrelevant.

I agree naziassbandit. And I disagree on the roman/greek pantheon religions, if you start adding them you should add every tribes religion.

Hyronymus said:

I agree naziassbandit. And I disagree on the roman/greek pantheon religions, if you start adding them you should add every tribes religion.

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Naziassbandit does have a point. Christianity was made into a European religion especially with the spread of Protestantism etc. but it's still not a native European religion.

Why would the Roman/Greek pantheon be out of place? We have the religion of a small backwater province of the Roman Empire but not the religion of the civilisations who form the basis of the modern world. Doesn't make much sense to me but then like I said I suspect it has more to do with PC and populism than historical accuracy.