Archers and First Strike - New Implementation

Exel · Nov 8, 2005

I dislike the way Civ 4 (and 3 for that matter) handles archer-type units. Instead of being generic defence units, they should be the support units they were historically. The First Strike function (which is a good idea as such) should be further improved to achieve this: if First Strike would be triggered whenever a unit in the Archer's stack (or city) attacks or is attacked, archers would essentially become support units for melee combat units. On the other hand, archers should be pretty defenseless in melee combat themselves, as they were in reality.

In short - First Strike should work like how Bombardment worked in defence in Civ3, but also when attacking.

This could then be extended to not only archer units, but to modern units such as mortars as well.

The question is if it is possible, and if yes, then could someone mod it?

Exel · Nov 28, 2005

Does anyone know how to mod this? :confused:

Colonel Kraken · Nov 28, 2005

I wish! I agree with you, this is definitely the way they should be implemented.

snarko · Nov 28, 2005

There's very little we can currently modify when it comes to the actual combat. I can't think of any way this is possible yet.

Colonel Kraken · Nov 28, 2005

Probably an SDK issue.

Clifford · Nov 28, 2005

I agree completely that the bombardment solution in Civ3 was superior to Civ4´s solution. If there was a way to do that in Civ4, it could be applied to guns and guerillas too, like in Civ3. I sure would enjoy that ALOT more...

Exel · Nov 29, 2005

Clifford said:
I agree completely that the bombardment solution in Civ3 was superior to Civ4´s solution. If there was a way to do that in Civ4, it could be applied to guns and guerillas too, like in Civ3. I sure would enjoy that ALOT more...

I used to mod my archers in Civ3 to give them defensive bombardment (range = 0) which essentially was a defensive first strike. I'm hoping Civ4 will allow this to be done for offensive as well. Unless someone figures out a way to code it with Python I guess I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed and wait for the SDK (boy would that be a nice Christmas present

).

LittleRedPoint · Nov 29, 2005

In my opinion it is possible, but this needs a new mission type what must reflected in CivEnums.h what is not accessible yet. If SDK comes out it may be possible. I want to create nuclear bomber and i can't do that because this needs a new mission type.

Exel · Nov 29, 2005

LittleRedPoint said:
In my opinion it is possible, but this needs a new mission type what must reflected in CivEnums.h what is not accessible yet. If SDK comes out it may be possible. I want to create nuclear bomber and i can't do that because this needs a new mission type.

Could it not be done with the existing bombardment (change of attributes), or am I totally lost here?

Fanatic Demon · Nov 30, 2005

I fully agree that Anchery should be able to fullfill are supporting role.

While the current UnitInfoFile allows a lot more te be modified then ever bore, they (intentionaly forgot the most important thing for bombarding, which is bombardment range. I guess it has something to do with the problems it gave the AI in Civ3. It never fully grasped the concept of bombardment eccept for defencive purposes only.

Now how can we solve this problem. As always we modders have to work with the tools we are given. The problem with bombardment is that it is only effective versus cities. What about the idea to give anchers a iCollateralDamage value. That way, anchers can be used effectively to soften up large stacks of enemy units before the main offensive units are used to finish the Job

Another way to improve the realism of Anchers is to give them a small iWithdrawalProb value, to represent their ability to retreat fast. This is realistic since anchers tend to be verly lightly (or not at all) armoured

Jet another way might be to increase the number of first strikes and lower their attack strength.

Colonel Kraken · Nov 30, 2005

I agree archers could be given a bombardment ability (no collateral damage), but the aim is to have the archer do this on the opposing player's turn --something we are unable to obtain as of yet.

shackleton · Dec 1, 2005

Perhaps if you could create a new promotion "Ranged fire" which gives like 90% withdrawel chance or something? I know it's not quite correct, but the effect should be that unless the opponent is lucky, attacking an archer will just result in them losing some health.

Problem is this would make archers very difficult to kill

Colonel Kraken · Dec 2, 2005

shackleton said:
Perhaps if you could create a new promotion "Ranged fire" which gives like 90% withdrawel chance or something? I know it's not quite correct, but the effect should be that unless the opponent is lucky, attacking an archer will just result in them losing some health.

Problem is this would make archers very difficult to kill

Interesting idea. Perhaps I should test it out.

Exel · Dec 2, 2005

I doubt that simply playing around with the features already in the game would give any satisfactory result. The optimal solution, in my opinion, would be that archers would attack with a first strike whenever another unit in its stack engages in combat.

Example:
A knight attacks a stack. Normally a pikeman would be chosen for the defense. However, there is an archer in the stack as well. The archer fires a first strike on the enemy knight. Melee combat begins after the first strike, but the archer is not the unit taking on the knight here, but the pikeman.

So far that'd be exactly like the defensive bombardment in Civ3. However it should also be triggered when the pikeman from the archer's stack attacks the knight in the adjacent tile.

I'm quite sure this can't be achieved without messing around with Python. So I'll call for any Python-able scripter to take the challenge and make Civ4 even better.

FexFX · Dec 2, 2005

I think this will require either heavy Python editing (beyond my skill) or the SDK.

King Flevance · Dec 6, 2005

I am all for this too. Signed if its a petition.

Clifford · Dec 7, 2005

Exel, you know I agree with you on every one of your ideas so far!

Bombardment of Civ3 is so much better.

Optimizer · Dec 8, 2005

Maybe archer and siege units could have a great chance of withdrawal (in which case they would be severely weakened as compensation).

Vietcong · Dec 8, 2005

i wholdnt change them to much, let them keep the + 100%city defens *defending city walls*

but add a civ 3 like bombardment, or a defensive bombarment like in civ 3 with conques, so if ur stack is atacked, thay can bombard a unit.

Archers and First Strike - New Implementation

Exel

Prince

Exel

Prince

Colonel Kraken

Deity

snarko

DLLer

Colonel Kraken

Deity

Clifford

Chieftain

Exel

Prince

LittleRedPoint

Slaver

Exel

Prince

Fanatic Demon

Student in Wizardry

Colonel Kraken

Deity

shackleton

Warlord

Colonel Kraken

Deity

Exel

Prince

FexFX

Prince

King Flevance

Deity

Clifford

Chieftain

Optimizer

Sthlm, SWE

Vietcong

Deity

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