Exploiting Promotions with Upgrades

mharmless

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
28
Different promotions are available to different categories of units. When a unit is upgraded its earned XP is cut back to 10 points, but it retains its level and promotions. Therefore, by making use of the points where an upgrade crosses categories you can create some very interesting units.

For example, city raider is not available to gunpowder units. It is however available to all melee units, which may all be upgraded to gunpowder later. A swordsman with 10/17 is level three and could potentialy have city raider 3 for a total of +75% vs city and +10% vs gunpowder. Upon upgrading to a rifleman, you would retain all of these upgrades. Such a rifleman is much better on city attack than any built rifleman with only the gunpowder promotions available at the same total xp.

Here is a quick illustration of each VS annother rifleman dug into a city which has had its walls brought down first. The defender is level 2 and has taken city defense promotion.
1) Sword->Mace->Rifle, 10/17 xp, city raider I,II,II
Attacker is 14 str, no bonuses.
Defender is 14 str, +25% fortify, +20% from city def, -75% from city raider, -10% from city raider III's gunpowder component

14 vs 8.4, better than 3-2 in favor of attacker.

2) Rifle, 10/17 xp Combat I,II, Pinch
Attacker is 14 str, +20% combat
Defender is 14 str, +25% fortify, +20% city def, -25% attacker's pinch

16.8 vs 16.8, 50-50 an even match.

So as you can see from this, the rifleman created from an ancient melee unit with some simple promotions is far more effective at tearing down a city than a newer gunpowder unit with the best combat promotions available to it. Even better, as you fight the upgraded one can ALSO pick up the gunpowder's promotions, but the constructed rifleman can never go back and get city raider.


There are other interesting places where units cross category boundries. For example, a melee unit upgraded to a grenadier may be later upgraded to a machine gun. The unit has gone melee->gunpowder->seige weapon at that point. Machine guns do not get the Barrrage promotions of other siege units, but they do get the Accuracy promotion. Catch is you need either city raider I or barrage I promotion to buy it. A melee unit with raider I, upgraded to a grenadier, and then later upgraded to a machine gun, may buy the Accuracy promotion and gain -10% city bombard.

Hard to earn xp with a machine gun, granted, but unspent xp IS saved up to 10 points when you upgrade. So you can simply park such a melee unit back home as a city defender with his level 4 promotion unused and then upgrade him to a machine gun and buy accuracy. Now you have a very strong defensive unit to move with the rest of your infantry, who will also be able to bombard down defenses. Later you can upgrade to SAM infantry and have a dual use support unit for your offensive armies.

It is also possible to create first strike in a gunpowder unit that follows the archer->gunpowder upgrade path. With four promotions (17 xp) you have 3-6 first strike chances. Even if you stop at 10 xp for drill III, that is still 1-4 chances. The only real downside to creating a drill IV gunpowder unit is that your unit will be level 5 and so 17/26, but then cut back to 10/26 when it is upgraded. Thats a lot of lost xp to make up for. That said, a couple first strike gunpowder units make excelent 'clean up' crews in any army since they can kill any unit they have at least a 1.58:1 advantage against in only four hits, which they will almost always be able to dish out entirely in the first strike round!

And on a final note, the agressive trait hands out combat I to all gunpowder/melee units, regardless of what they started as. An archer with drill IV upgraded to a rifleman picks up combat I in the process, and a grenadier upgraded to a machine gun keeps his combat I even though a newly constructed machine gun would not get the benifit. However, if you pick up combat I with an archer you do NOT gain combat II for free when upgrading to gunpowder.



Please post with any other usefull or interesting promotion tricks you've found, I would love to learn some new ones.
 
mharmless said:
There are other interesting places where units cross category boundries. For example, a melee unit upgraded to a grenadier may be later upgraded to a machine gun. The unit has gone melee->gunpowder->seige weapon at that point. Machine guns do not get the Barrrage promotions of other siege units, but they do get the Accuracy promotion. Catch is you need either city raider I or barrage I promotion to buy it. A melee unit with raider I, upgraded to a grenadier, and then later upgraded to a machine gun, may buy the Accuracy promotion and gain -10% city bombard.

Very interesting thread! :) But sorry, I don't understand this point. Accuracy is available only for siege weapons, and needs barrage 1, which is available for siege and armored units. Grenadier is gunpowder, so how can it gain barrage?

Well ... The confusing thing is that in the manual, accuracy's prerequisite is barrage 1, but city raider 1 also leads to accuracy. So accuracy's prerequisite is actually barrage 1 OR city raider 1?
 
Heroes said:
Very interesting thread! :) But sorry, I don't understand this point. Accuracy is available only for siege weapons, and needs barrage 1, which is available for siege and armored units. Grenadier is gunpowder, so how can it gain barrage?

Well ... The confusing thing is that in the manual, accuracy's prerequisite is barrage 1, but city raider 1 also leads to accuracy. So accuracy's prerequisite is actually barrage 1 OR city raider 1?

Grenadier can't gain barrage either, it is just that when you have the choice to upgrade a melee to either rifleman or grenadier, taking the rifleman path rules out machine gun. And yes, accuracy requires either barrage I or city raider I, doesn't matter which.

snepp said:
Perhaps machine guns should be modified to receive the same amount of xp that other units do when they attack?

I'm not sure what you mean? Machine guns cannot attack but they gain XP as normal while being attacked. Getting the enemy to attack a machine gun is usualy... difficult. The computer seems to prefer to ignore the machine gun and go pillaging.

Actualy the lack of an attack animation makes it look very odd when they bombard since it makes them slide up to the city like a catapult, looking stiff and corpselike, and then they abrubtly drop down and start shooting the machine guns.
 
mharmless said:
I'm not sure what you mean? Machine guns cannot attack but they gain XP as normal while being attacked. Getting the enemy to attack a machine gun is usualy... difficult. The computer seems to prefer to ignore the machine gun and go pillaging.

Units receive less xp when defending than they do when attacking, no different for machine guns, that's why I made the suggestion. ;)
 
snepp said:
Units receive less xp when defending than they do when attacking, no different for machine guns, that's why I made the suggestion. ;)


Ahh! I had no idea that xp was reduced for defenders. XP formulas are somthing I wanted to sit down and try to figure out in detail but have not done so yet. I've seen an attacker recieve multiple XP for a win, but keeping tabs on defender XP is alot harder since I dont get to pick the defending unit.

Do you know if it is possible to receive zero xp for defending against annother player? Other than defening against a barbarian/animal when you already have 10 XP of course. I don't belive I've ever seen attacking units get less than one point for a win, and they are watched pretty closely.
 
mharmless said:
Ahh! I had no idea that xp was reduced for defenders. XP formulas are somthing I wanted to sit down and try to figure out in detail but have not done so yet. I've seen an attacker recieve multiple XP for a win, but keeping tabs on defender XP is alot harder since I dont get to pick the defending unit.

Do you know if it is possible to receive zero xp for defending against annother player? Other than defening against a barbarian/animal when you already have 10 XP of course. I don't belive I've ever seen attacking units get less than one point for a win, and they are watched pretty closely.

After making my post I starting doing a bit of XP testing. For what it's worth here's what I've got so far (not much). I'm guessing there is a minimum of 1 xp from combat (other than the barb/animals).

Heavily modified Machine Guns receive 1 xp from killing a warrior. :lol:

Unmodified modern armor receives 3 xp from killing an unmodified mech infantry (base strengths, 40 vs 32).

Modified modern armor received 2 xp from killing an unmodified mech infantry (I think it was something rediculous like 60 vs 32).

More to come...

4 xp for modern armor vs modern armor, base strengths, 40 vs 40.

2 xp for modified modern vs modern (60 vs 40).

3 xp for modified modern vs modern (48 vs 40).

5 xp for mech infantry vs modern, base strengths, 32 vs 40
 
Really interesting points. I particularly like the Melee units with City Raider upgrading to Gunpowder units.

(Actually, looking more into the stuff gunpowder units get, they really only can get the defense specific ones...)

Thanks!
 
What you say is true, but there also appears to be a bug in the game.

For example, if I upgrade some old units to modern armor, gunships, or whatever (don't recall exact units), I still have the +25% to archery units promotion available for those. But I don't with new units.
 
snepp said:
Units receive less xp when defending than they do when attacking, no different for machine guns, that's why I made the suggestion. ;)

What do you mean? It seems a unit gets 1 XP when destroying an ememy unit. Do you say you only gain 1/2 XP or sth like that when defending?
 
Heroes: Look at snepps post. A unit gets more exp when attacking with poor odds. I've experienced the same thing.

mharmless: Well, you rarely go up against an unpromoted defender, it usually has a few levels of City Garrison, effectively countering the City Raider promotions. Which is why it's a pain warring in that era if you don't have upgraded melee units as riflemen. Or Red Coats of course.
 
Heroes said:
What do you mean? It seems a unit gets 1 XP when destroying an ememy unit. Do you say you only gain 1/2 XP or sth like that when defending?

From the manual:

COMBAT EXPERIENCE POINTS
The amount of xps you get for winning a battle depends upon
whether you’re attacking or defending and the relative
strengths of the units involved. A unit gets twice as many xps
for attacking as it does when defending. Further, if you defeat
a stronger opponent you get more xps than you do for defeating
a weaker opponent.
Note that units get NO xps for defeating non-combat units
(like settlers and workers).

Here are the relevant lines in the unit xml file:

<iXPValueAttack>4</iXPValueAttack>
<iXPValueDefense>2</iXPValueDefense>

Note I copied these from the Machine Gun, our favorite defend-only unit. I don't see anything wrong with setting the machine gunner's defend xp to 4, maybe even to 5, given they never have the option of attacking in order to build any xp.

Anywho, The 4 xp attack value supports my observations when the attacker and defender are evenly matched. I'm sure with a bit of testing it wouldn't be too difficult to hack out a rough formula.
 
@snepp:

Willing to do some more testing? I'd love to hack out these formulae. I should test on my own, but when I have access to the game, I just can't stop playing long enough to test! :)

For now, I'd like to run some more pure ratios. I'm guessing the ratio is the key, not pure strength. Just a couple should verify.

Like 3 vs. 2 (archer vs warrior on flat lands)
and 2 vs. 2 (warrior vs warrior)
What happens when the defender wins those battles? How many xp does a defender get? How about a defender for 1 vs 1 (evenly matched)? I'm guessing 2.

Do all units have the same iXPValues? If not, which units are different? If so, let's concentrate on the base case (with 4 and 2) before going diving into how it changes with different values.

Arathorn

Edit: First guess for formula -- floor(iXPValue*opponent_strength/your_strength), with a minimum of 1. Fits the available data so far.
 
Good post. The title disturbed me a little though. Sure your use of the word "exploiting" is fine and dandy with a dictionary definition. But when it comes to gaming "exploiting" takes on a whole new meaning. Since taking advantage of these promotions is not "exploiting" by the gaming definition it makes your title very misleading.
 
Arathorn said:
@snepp:

Willing to do some more testing?

I'd love to. :lol:

Do all units have the same iXPValues? If not, which units are different? If so, let's concentrate on the base case (with 4 and 2) before going diving into how it changes with different values.

Yes, all units in the xml file have the same values, 4 attack, and 2 defense.

To maintain a bit of consistancy, my units (those I'm tracking xp for) will always be listed on the left. Units are assumed to be at base strengths, with no bonuses or promotions, unless noted.

Attacking:
2xp - Archer 3.0 vs Warrior 2.0
4xp - Warrior 2.0 vs Warrior 2.0
6xp - Warrior 2.0 vs Archer 3.0

Defending:
1xp - Archer 3.0 vs Warrior 2.0
1xp - Warrior 2.5 (25% fortify) vs Warrior 2.0
2xp - Warrior 2.0 vs Warrior 2.0
?xp - Warrior 2.0 vs Archer 3.0 (archer refuses to attack me, probably safe to assume 3xp)


Attacking:
5xp - Spearman 4.0 vs Praetorian 5.76 (damaged from previous attacks, getting a pure 1:2 ratio kill is tough)
8xp - Spearman 4.0 vs Praetorian 8.0 (that's what I was looking for :lol: )
 
First guess for formula -- floor(iXPValue*opponent_strength/your_strength), with a minimum of 1. Fits the available data so far.

Still looks to fit everything we know so far.

Something like spearmen vs. longbow (4 vs. 6) shouldn't be too tough to win and if that's 6 xps, we're looking very good. Chariot vs. axeman (4 vs. 5) for 5 xps would be another corraborative data point.

And it certainly looks like it's using adjusted strengths, from your fortified warrior example. Too bad -- I'd like to see more experience for using your units intelligently. Oh well. To be sure, would you do a axeman against a swordsman (with your axeman attacking their sword)? I think that will give 3 xp (adjusted strength scores of floor(4*6/7.5) = floor(3.2) = 3) instead of 4 xp (floor(4*6/5)).

If these all work out, I'll probably add this to my combat article soon. I'd like to be sure of the 1 minimum value, too. So like a modern armor vs. warrior, which would be (floor(4*2/40)=0), to be certain it's 1. And maybe a combat I infantry vs. warrior, which is 0, too, by formula... I want to check that, too.

Thanks so much!
Arathorn
 
Arathorn said:
Something like spearmen vs. longbow (4 vs. 6) shouldn't be too tough to win and if that's 6 xps, we're looking very good. Chariot vs. axeman (4 vs. 5) for 5 xps would be another corraborative data point.

And it certainly looks like it's using adjusted strengths, from your fortified warrior example. Too bad -- I'd like to see more experience for using your units intelligently. Oh well. To be sure, would you do a axeman against a swordsman (with your axeman attacking their sword)? I think that will give 3 xp (adjusted strength scores of floor(4*6/7.5) = floor(3.2) = 3) instead of 4 xp (floor(4*6/5)).

If these all work out, I'll probably add this to my combat article soon. I'd like to be sure of the 1 minimum value, too. So like a modern armor vs. warrior, which would be (floor(4*2/40)=0), to be certain it's 1. And maybe a combat I infantry vs. warrior, which is 0, too, by formula... I want to check that, too.

Everything looks good thus far.

Attacking:
1xp - Infantry (Combat I) 22.0 vs. Warrior 2.0
1xp - Modern Armor 40.0 vs Warrior 2.0
3xp - Axeman 5.0 vs Swordsman 4.0
6xp - Spearman 4.0 vs Longbow 6.0

Small wrinkle for units that withdraw. I'll have to check the xp gained when defending against a unit that withdraws.

Attacking:
1xp - Chariot 4.0 vs Axeman 5.0 (the chariot lost and withdrew from battle)
5xp - Chariot 4.0 vs Axeman 5.0
 
There are some interesting combos available but how often are you really going to attack with a rifleman UNLESS you've specifically designed it as a former city raider melee unit. And how many of these are you realistically going to be able to build up and afford to upgrade under normal circumstances. I'd rather simply build cavalry and have my slower riflemen defending.

Neato, but not really a big deal.

BTW, for someone who mentioned it - there are no units that upgrade to tanks, so you can't really build them oddball promo packages.
 
Expanding on my previous post....

Attacking:
1xp - Chariot 4.0 (Flanking I & II) vs Modern Armor 40.0 (chariot withdrew)

Defending:
0xp - Knight 10.0 vs Chariot 4.0 (Flanking I & II) (chariot withdrew)
 
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