AI can't start diplomacy with any unit!

Everywhere where there is civ1 fanatics discussing their favourite game.. there is bound to be someone who picks up the topic of cheating AI. And with that goes the usual "I hate it sooo much how the AI can just talk to you with ANY of their units... but we have to use diplomats!!1!11".

I think it's time for me to point out that one of the biggest 'flaws' in civ1 isn't a flaw at all. It's a feature! I propose that the AI does not start a diplomacy with you with their units. They also need diplomats.

*dodges the flying pitchfolks*

No! Listen folks, whenever your unit is next to an enemy unit and the message comes up with something along the lines of: "The Aztecs wish to talk to you.. Accept or Decline?" It is not the AI deciding to talk to you but rather the game itself linking you two together.

To understand this process you need to understand that the AI and the game are different. The AI is the one that manages the cites of it's civilization, explores, builds attack forces etc. The game however is the one that decides who wins each battle (the random-number-generator), picks what comes out of a goody hut (the random-number-generator) and what each map actually looks like (where the islands are and how big they are etc) and of course, many other things.
Now, whenever something of yours (a city, army, settler) is adjacent to something that belongs to another civilization there is a small chance that you are going to get the diplomacy prompt. And the more turns since your last palay the more chance of one appearing. Then why do you never/rarely see enemy diplomats, huh? Well, that could be for a number of reasons:
1. Diplomats are invisible to other civs (or concealed as another unit e.g. the current popular defence unit of that civ)
2. They just don't build them. Maybe them a waste of time because they know that they don't really need them to talk to other civs)

I would probably go with reason 2. Considering I've heard other civ1 players talk of spotting an enemy diplomat.

So, to summarise, here is Trada's law of unit-to-unit diplomacy:

Whenever there is a unit under your control that is adjacent to to a unit that another civilization controls, there is a random chance, as chosen by the game itself not the AI, that you are going to get the diplomacy prompt. And the more turns since your last palay the more chance of one appearing.


Hehe, how's that for controversial?

I have never thought of it this way. I always thought it was a flaw. Now that you have explained it it seems alot more logical.

Hehe, we you think of it this way civilization becomes that less fustrating.

The contact protocol is not a random occurrance. The AI civs will interact once every 16 turns (IIRC), both with you and with each other. These 'cycles' appear to be predetermined; in that you might contact them on 'turn 8', which means 8 turns later you will be contacted again (assuming a unit is in direct contact). However the next time you are contacted will be a full cycle (16 turns) away. The exception to this is when a civilization is on a war footing and only made peace with you temporarily while tackling another civ. As soon as they are at peace again, they will contact you and declare war. The obvious solution to those not wanting to be contacted, is to hide your units within your territory.

As for diplomats, the AI civs do produce them, all the time in fact, and will use them for sabotage, bribery, or to steal technology (i have never seen them subvert a city). The diplomats operate through their units on the battlefield, and you can see an enemy diplomat superimposed upon that unit only when it is in action. This means that the moment a city produces a diplomat, it is immediately transported to the desired unit on the battlefield where it is required. This has some unexpected consequences; for instance, I have had buildings in my cities sabotaged by diplomats acting through Bombers that are left for a turn beside my city! In fact in one scenario, 10 enemy diplomats were produced in a single turn, and acting through the bomber (because they couldnt reach my cities over land) they destroyed all the buildings in my city! And there I was thinking I was safe from the AI civ...

0_o Whoa.

Did you read this in the Rome on 640k a Day? God, I want that book.

No, thats not in the book, ive just learnt that from playing. But the book was/is a good way of understanding the game, esp if you are not that familiar with the rules etc.

simonnomis said:

As for diplomats, the AI civs do produce them, all the time in fact,...

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Perhaps as a concept but not in reality. (Barbarians being the exception, and they are not conventional diplomats)

simonnomis said:

...the moment a city produces a diplomat...

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In REPLAY.TXT one would expect to find xxx produces first diplomat. I have never seen it.

I suggest that after every turn in CIV DOS you save the game, then take a program like CIV$ and look a what each city is producing. One thing I predict you will never see is a diplomat.

Put me in the camp that says that there are no game civ diplomats produced by a city or appear on any map square.

trada said:

Trada's law of unit-to-unit diplomacy

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I think it is more of a theory than a law, but it does it does describe what takes place.

from Trada's law as chosen by the game itself not the AI

Metaphysics aside, CIV is a computer program (this maybe heresy and blasphemy in the same statement), but logic that controls the game and the games civilizations seem to be not that much separated.

Caravans and Diplomats used by the games civilizations are concepts not reality.

The reason I say diplomats are produced is because well, they are, though not in the same context as a human player would. Call it a quasi-reality, much the same as the caravans; you can see them being produced in the city, but they never physcially exist. Anyone with civ version .01 (or anyone who sends in a diplomat to spy) can attest to the production of the diplomats, very frequently - indeed in latter stages of the game, diplomats are often the ONLY unit the AI civs will produce, assuming they already have the full 127 units - and also the appearance of the diplomat icon superimposed over the unit through which it is operating on the battelfield.

As for replay.txt, I have no idea whether other civs are recorded having produced a diplomat first but I will have a look in future. It would be difficult since they usually only start using the technology in the latter stages of the game, by which time the human player would most likely have made many. However you may well be correct, though civ players are often recorded having produced the first caravan.

simonnomis said:

The reason I say diplomats are produced is because well, they are, though not in the same context as a human player would.

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You say not in the same context are they an entry in that countries unit table or not?

simonnomis said:

Anyone with civ version .01 (or anyone who sends in a diplomat to spy) can attest to the production of the diplomats.

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1) Take a screen shot 2) Post the map & save file.

simonnomis said:

diplomats are often the ONLY unit the AI civs will produce

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What is the evidence for this?

simonnomis said:

and also the appearance of the diplomat icon superimposed over the unit through which it is operating on the battelfield.

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What version are you using? (CIV DOS)
I use 474.05 so maybe the early version shows this.
Again screen shot please.

simonnomis said:

though civ players are often recorded having produced the first caravan.

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Here I stand corrected I have found is a REPLAY.TXT file dated 10/9/2000 the following line.
1520 BC: Aztecs produce first Caravan


I may well be wrong about this but in the interest of debate I would like to see the evidence. I sent you an email the other day did you get it?

Gosh I didnt realise it was such controversial information. I have known about the diplomats aspect almost since I started playing. Surely someone else is observant enough to notice this too?!

I will be more than happy to provide the asked for info, how do I take screenshots? It would be much easier if you would just look for yourself though. Just play a game into the latter stages, pick a civ with full units (127 or so) and take a peek in their cities. Assuming they have built all the buildings they can, you will almost ALWAYS see a diplomat being constructed.

Dack said:

You say not in the same context are they an entry in that countries unit table or not?

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This can never be. As I said before, the units only exists for the MOMENT it is produced.

Originally Posted by simonnomis
and also the appearance of the diplomat icon superimposed over the unit through which it is operating on the battelfield.
_ _ _ _ _ _

What version are you using? (CIV DOS)
I use 474.05 so maybe the early version shows this.
Again screen shot please.

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As I said, the only time you can see the AI diplomat is in the midst of its operation, on the unit it is working through, on the exact same turn it is produced. The diplomat suddenly appears over the top of, say, the armor, superimposed for a fraction of a second - presumably to let the player know what has happened - and then dissapears. Is it possible to get a screenshot during a turn?

I'll go check my email...

Dack said:

Metaphysics aside, CIV is a computer program (this maybe heresy and blasphemy in the same statement), but logic that controls the game and the games civilizations seem to be not that much separated.

Caravans and Diplomats used by the games civilizations are concepts not reality.

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I'm still pretty sure that there are different sub-routines for the game mechanics and the AI (even if one sub-routine is used for all the AI civs). In that way, they are separated.