Tank craziness

M

Monkus

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Hello,

has anyone else found that a tank has only ever 6 attacks before dying?

For instance my 4 lovely tanks were pumelling a backwards civ with just archers and mad axemen, but it got just 6 attacks on each man before it died.

I do find it unlikely that a single tank can conquor 3 cities in 8 turns, sure, though having 6 Archer men defeat a tank unit is... silly. And all my tanks just got 6 shots before dying.

I thought we had gotten away from the phalanx unit killing a battleship or a warrior managing to kill a tank!
 
Monkus said:
I thought we had gotten away from the phalanx unit killing a battleship or a warrior managing to kill a tank!
Click to expand...

You thought wrong :hammer:
 
Don't you know, tanks are considered destroyed when they got more than 6 scratched or blood stains on them. :dubious:
 
I sure hope you let them heal before attacking again.. The more damaged they are, the less strength they have...
 
Monkus said:
Hello,

has anyone else found that a tank has only ever 6 attacks before dying?

For instance my 4 lovely tanks were pumelling a backwards civ with just archers and mad axemen, but it got just 6 attacks on each man before it died.

I do find it unlikely that a single tank can conquor 3 cities in 8 turns, sure, though having 6 Archer men defeat a tank unit is... silly. And all my tanks just got 6 shots before dying.

I thought we had gotten away from the phalanx unit killing a battleship or a warrior managing to kill a tank!
Click to expand...
This is a perfect example of a dumb@ss player thinking he can just steamroll through low-tech enemies with Tanks. Plenty of players have complained about losing tanks to melee units, but this is the first that I've seen who has explicitly described their missuse of tanks. Obviously Monkus believes that tanks should be unstoppable by low-tech units -- that they shouldn't even be able to damage tanks, nevermind destroy them.

I'd agree that a tank being destroyed by a spearman or archer in a 1-on-1 fight with both at full health is impossible, and shouldn't happen in the game. But if the tank is moderately damaged or worse, it's possible -- especially if the low-tech unit has defensive or combat bonuses.

Foreshame on you Monkus for using your tanks in such a dumb@ss way. Patton you are not.

Moderator Action: Trolling and flaming - offer your criticisms in a constructive way.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Mister, I wasn't complaining about it happening, rather that I think it's silly for a tank just to have just 6 attacks against archers or axers before dying.

I don't believe it should be unstoppable by low tech armies. But certainly the randomness nees to be much higher. Maybe one in ever 20 or 25 attacks it is killed.

And now, I don't see how it's misuse at all. A tank should be able to beat a great number of archers. How exactly will they destory the tank except by running away till it runs our of petrol?

Please don't be mean to me over this. I've played a great number of dice etc games based on luck and I was just thinking it's not quite balanced here. No need to get mean!
 
When a tank loses to archers or other weaker units I chalk it up to an ambush. Under the right circumstances, individual infantry combat units can defeat tanks. When tanks are trapped in narrow streets or gulleys for instance. I agree should not happen often, but it is not impossible. Tanks without infantry support are in fact vulnerable. (Russian tanks that charged into city unsupported in Chetnia is recent example) Many other examples are present from WW2 also.

I agree that it hurts when it happens but it can happen in real life so I guess not too far fetched to include in CIV.

David
 
Monkus said:
Mister, I wasn't complaining about it happening, rather that I think it's silly for a tank just to have just 6 attacks against archers or axers before dying.

I don't believe it should be unstoppable by low tech armies. But certainly the randomness nees to be much higher. Maybe one in ever 20 or 25 attacks it is killed.

And now, I don't see how it's misuse at all. A tank should be able to beat a great number of archers. How exactly will they destory the tank except by running away till it runs our of petrol?

Please don't be mean to me over this. I've played a great number of dice etc games based on luck and I was just thinking it's not quite balanced here. No need to get mean!
Click to expand...


Dice games are nice and all, but combat in Civ IV does not work like Axis and Allies or Civ I. It works by assigning a strength and then bonus to each unit and then letting them attack each other. Yes a tank can kill a number of archers, but after each victory, it is worn down a bit. That affects its strength. Eventually, it just runs out of strength and will die to anything, warrior, archer, anything. You need to rest your units between attacks in order to make them last longer.
 
I make sure to heal my attacking units, even tanks, and I am able to consistantly murder legions of helpless archers.. I only attack with an injured unit if it has an overwhelming odds value in the bottom left, or I need to take a roll of the dice for speed reasons.. otherwise, a healthy army is an effective one, in my experience

I sometimes play multiplayer with a guy who will make a gigantic SoD of his UU (usually samurai or praetorians) and just attack nonstop, throwing men to their death.. I would label him more of a Stalinesque general than most, I usually attack in smaller, diverse, and completely healed groups, when possible.. and defending against that guy is terribly easy.. and anyone who doesnt let their units heal, for that matter, can build mass quantities of low tech counters for them, and probably still win the hammer exchange
 
Don't forget to change the oil and lube the chassis (or heal your units)! Your tanks broke down and the archers laid seige to your crippled tank.
 
he did not mean to be mean ;)

Problem is that you can not just steamroll. A tank is obviously not unbeatable. Imagine a Tank trying to conquer a fortified city that is defended by Archers. If the tank is almost dead he has not much power left.
In reality it would be the same if a tank batalion is reduced to a single tank trying to destroy 300 archers who are entrenched in a city. The tank could lose because archers can still build barricades and use other devices than just bow and arrow.
pictographic talking: I would lwin against Mohamed Ali, if he had not the chance to sleep 3 days... Eventhough I am way weaker
 
sillyspheres said:
Dice games are nice and all, but combat in Civ IV does not work like Axis and Allies or Civ I. It works by assigning a strength and then bonus to each unit and then letting them attack each other. Yes a tank can kill a number of archers, but after each victory, it is worn down a bit. That affects its strength. Eventually, it just runs out of strength and will die to anything, warrior, archer, anything. You need to rest your units between attacks in order to make them last longer.
Click to expand...

Oh, THAT'S what the 14/35 arms are :p

Just joking - yes, I can understand, but IMHO, tanks need to be stronger. Sorry for bringing it up!
 
Monkus said:
Mister, I wasn't complaining about it happening, rather that I think it's silly for a tank just to have just 6 attacks against archers or axers before dying.

I don't believe it should be unstoppable by low tech armies. But certainly the randomness nees to be much higher. Maybe one in ever 20 or 25 attacks it is killed.

And now, I don't see how it's misuse at all. A tank should be able to beat a great number of archers. How exactly will they destory the tank except by running away till it runs our of petrol?

Please don't be mean to me over this. I've played a great number of dice etc games based on luck and I was just thinking it's not quite balanced here. No need to get mean!
Click to expand...
It sounds like your not taking defensive and promotion bonuses seriously.

6 archers with city garasson II get the culture defense bonus (by late games easily 80-110% plus 25% fortify bonus, plus city defense bonus, plus any terrain bonuses for hills etc etc.

This makes it VERY likely the archer (which in all reality isnt anything more than a ground unit with X attack power) will damage your tank.

DAMAGE MEANS YOU LOSE COMBAT STRENGTH! making it MORE likely the next archer will damage your tank again. After 6 archers with a slew of bonuses, its no wonder your tank lost. Its power would be ALOT less than the combined power of that archer.

Its all about X attack strength + bonuses vs. your units Y attack power.

Think tactically! Attacking a city with multiple defenders? Artiliery is a absolute MUST! Destroy thhat defensive bonus, and your tanks WILL steamrole those lesser units. Its all in the planning... just throwing units at a city WILL result in this kind of thing happening to you over and over again
 
For man Vs Tank think of Saving Private Ryan where Tom Hanks made a sticky bomb that blew off the tracks.

Also, I likr to think my spearmen are so accurate they stick them in the exhaust and block it up, causing engine shut down!
 
Hentooth said:
Also, I likr to think my spearmen are so accurate they stick them in the exhaust and block it up, causing engine shut down!
Click to expand...

That's what I was fearing...

Battleships vs Phalanx again. Yes, it's mathematically possible for a spear to be thrown 10 miles, hit every major part of the ship, each crew member and all the lifeboats before bouncing back to the own on the shore whilst simultaneously deflecting back 500 shells, but it's unlikely, to say the least :p
 
Hentooth said:
For man Vs Tank think of Saving Private Ryan where Tom Hanks made a sticky bomb that blew off the tracks.

Also, I likr to think my spearmen are so accurate they stick them in the exhaust and block it up, causing engine shut down!
Click to expand...
I think alot of people are hung up on the unit graphic. We all know that the combat engine is just a number cruncher, and doesnt care what the unit is beyond the can this units category attack that units category? The engine detremines that a melee unit cannot attack an aircraft or a naval unit, but another melee, armor, or gunpowder unit? Sure! Its just X stregth + bonuses vs Y strength. The graphic itself doesnt matter.

Sure, it looks strange, but its all satisical and should be veiwed as: Str X vs Y, not archer vs tank

my 2cents
 
Just a thought experiment...

A tank beating six units of archers without rest for healing can be seen as a tank company attacking six companies of archers. A tank company is ~9-12 tanks, tops. An archer company would be some 2-300 men, I believe. That makes a hundred archers per individual tank. Entrenched, I have no problem with them taking out the tank, they could even literally swarm it and kill the crew (as has happened with worse odds on a number of occasions). Of course, you might want to scale it up to brigades or regiments or whatever, but you get my point...

Edit: With the cultural bonus, I assume that we simulate irregulars taking part in the defence. Even more plausible.
 
Aside from the fact that it's just a unit graphic....
Any armored unit kept in continual combat will become seriously understrength just from maintenance issues. The Germans lost as many Tigers to mechanical breakdown as they did to enemy action.

In a fast paced offense, even just a broken track (which happens all too often) can take a tank out of the battle until the crew can fix it and catch up. Any armored unit must stop occasionally to rest, repair, refuel, rearm and perform preventative maintenance.
 
Has there been a change to the combat system?

I thought that in Civ3 you kept your initial combat values but lost "hit points"
- and it appears now that you actually lose combat strength.

Or am I off beam here?

If this is true it's a backward step. Even a crippled tank still has a big gun.
 
exile2 said:
Has there been a change to the combat system?

I thought that in Civ3 you kept your initial combat values but lost "hit points"
- and it appears now that you actually lose combat strength.

Or am I off beam here?

If this is true it's a backward step. Even a crippled tank still has a big gun.
Click to expand...

your big guns will get overheated, worn out, and worse still, warped in shape.. do you think you can still fire yet another shell without the shell getting stuck in the barrel and **kaboom** :scan:
 
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