State Of The Union - 3500BC

As the next DP, I'm starting this thread to plan the way forward for our Great Nation. I intend to play the turnset this sunday evening (GMT), holding a chat if anybody's interested.

This is the situation as of 3550BC:

DOMESTIC ADVISOR
"Our only city is Karakorum. No problems are anticipated; health, happiness and growth are all OK. Production (2 hammers) is less than desired; however this would be offset somewhat by our surplus of 3 food were we to build Settlers or Workers. Karakorum is due to grow in 3500BC. The additional population is unlikely to impact our food surplus."

FINANCIAL ADVISOR
"Our treasury is bursting to hold the 114 gold pieces we have acquired. We are making 9 commerce per turn from Karakorum. 100% of this is being used to further the boundaries of our knowledge. We have no expenditure and no gold surplus."

CIVICS ADVISOR
"I have the easiest job in the world. No Civics options are currently available, or are likely to become available in the near future."

FOREIGN ADVISOR
"We have so far made contact with two rival civilizations. The Egyptians' homeland is far to our north-west. No settlement has yet been sighted, but we believe it to be in a strong position with many hammers and much food available. The Arabs are based to our south-west, although we know nothing of their homeland. Relations are Cautious towards both these powers."

MILITARY ADVISOR
"Our military consists of the warriors defending Karakorum, and a party of Scouts presently engaged in exploration to the north-west. A second Scout is anticipated to be produced in 3450. The best military unit available to us is the Warrior. We could produce one in 5 turns as things stand, or 2 turns if we totally sacrifice city growth. We are on the threshold of many powerful new units, but we need horses and either copper or iron to use them."

MILITARY ADVISOR: SUB-OFFICE OF CARTOGRAPHY
"There are many blank spaces on our world map. Further rapid exploration is a priority. Exploration to the east is likely to bring the quickest benefits, as there is a goody hut as well as the coastline in that direction. Exploration to the west, towards Arabia, should also be considered a high priority."

SCIENCE ADVISOR
"Thanks to tax breaks, nearly everyone in the country performs some kind of scientific research. We are producing 9 beakers per turn. We anticipate discovering the secrets of Pottery in 3450. At that point, we have many options. The most enticing are listed here:

Animal Husbandry -> Horseback Riding (281 beakers/32 turns)
This will allow us to take advantage of our special unit, the Keshik, provided we can exploit a source of horses.

Mining -> Bronze Working (136 beakers/16 turns)
This route will allow us to build mines on the hills near Karakorum, discover sources of Copper, and chop forests to gain hammers quickly. It also leads to Iron Working (160 beakers/11 turns) which enables clearing of jungles and should be considered essential for expansion to the south-east. It should be noted that we have Gems to the south-east, which is a potential cash cow.

Mining -> Masonry (104 beakers/12 turns)
In addition to the benefits of Mining, Masonry will allow us to access the Marble to our north-east, once we expand our borders. Marble doubles the production speed of many Wonders and also provides shields to a city working its tile.

Archery (48 beakers/6 turns)
Archery is required to produce Archers and Keshiks. Archers are powerful city defenders, while Keshiks (our unique unit) are masters of the offensive battle.

There are other possibilities as well, in addition to long-term goals such as:

Calendar
Required to exploit the bananas near our capital, as well as the sugar to the far west if we go that way. Of limited importance otherwise.

Fishing
Would allow us to work the six lake tiles within our radius. No other immediate benefits. Indispensible if we expand towards the coast, however.

Writing
Would allow us to build Libraries.

Compass
We could train Explorers to reconnoitre the continent faster.

Metal Casting
Could ultimately allow dramatic improvements to Karakorum's hammer production."

RELIGIOUS ADVISOR
"We have no religious options available. If required, we could found Hinduism in 12 turns or Judaism in 33 turns. However it is likely that some other nation would beat us to it. Buddhism has already been taken; we don't know by whom."

DEMOGRAPHICS
"Astonishingly, the life expectancy of our citizens is 81 years!"

GOVERNORS' REPORT
KARAKORUM
The principal concern of the Governor of Karakorum at present is low productivity. At present, only two hammers are being produced per turn. However, there is capacity for decent improvement. When the population increases in 3500, we have three principal options:

1) Work the corn. This will increase our food surplus from 3 to 4 per turn.
2) Work a grass/forest tile. This will increase production from 2 to 3 hammers.
3) Work the elephants or a forest/plains tile. This will reduce the food surplus from 3 to 2 per turn, but increase production from 2 to 4 hammers.

Our Scout is currently 7 hammers from completion (will be 5 hammers in 3500).

FUTUROLOGY DEPARTMENT
"Our Seers have made the following predictions:

#1 3500BC
Emperor *Satis succeeds Daveshack to the throne and takes the holy title of "Early Bird."
Karakorum grows.

#2 3450BC
The secrets of Pottery are discovered. A Scout is completed in Karakorum.

#3 3400BC

#4 3350BC
The goody hut to our east is popped.

#5 3300BC
Archery could (just) be discovered as early as this.

#6 3250BC

#7 3200BC

#8 3150BC

#9 3100BC
This is the earliest date a Worker can be completed in Karakorum.

#10 3050BC
Emperor *Satis steps down. Emperor Piparoo takes the holy title of "Early Bird"

I advocate the following courses of action. This is what I will do unless consensus dictates otherwise, so please get debating everybody!

Have our new citizen work the elephants and switch from the grass/forest to plains/forest. This will allow the scout to be completed in 3450.

Produce a worker next. This will stop growth until we have gathered 40 hammers. Surplus food counts towards production when you're building workers, so we can go to 6 hammers per turn.
the worker should be completed in 3100 (turn #9 of this term)

Research Archery right after Pottery. This is vital to gain access to Keshiks, as well as maintaining a strong city defence. Archery should be discovered in 3200. Research either Animal Husbandry or Mining. Horses and either Copper or Iron are vital to a strong military.

Immediately train an Archer. The worker should farm the corn first of all, then head north-west to build a camp on top of the elephants. There is not yet any value to building roads on any tile. After this, Cottages should be constructed followed by a road to the site of our second city but we're getting waaaaay beyond my term of office here.

Militarily, the old scout should probe the Egyptians' land and move to the west. The new scout should pop the hut to the east, then move in a south-westerly direction around the lake, on the lookout for commerce- and production-rich city sites. When we have an archer, we can move the warrior northwards to fill in the blanks.

#1 3500BC
Karakorum grew to size 3. Labourers re-assigned as per the plan, we are now producing 5 hammers per turn with 1 surplus food. Hinduism was founded in a distant land.

#2 3450BC
Pottery was discovered. Archery (4 turns) chosen as our next tech, as per the plan. Scout completed in Karakorum; Worker (7 turns) begun. Hatshepsut converted to Hinduism, and her borders expanded, booting our western scout to the south-east. He continues to skirt her new borders, heading west.

#3 3400BC

#4 3350BC
The villagers to the east provided us with a map. We receive knowledge of a lot of totally empty ocean tiles. A Lion was spotted to the south of Karakorum.

#5 3300BC
Our eastern scout headed south along the coast. A Lion was spotted to the south of Karakorum.

#6 3250BC
Archery was discovered. Mining (3 turns) was chosen as the next tech. The western scout came across an impassable peak against the coast, so turned south. Gold was discovered along the eastern coast.

#7 3200BC
The Lion returned.

#8 3150BC
The Lion disappeared again. Our eastern scout came across another village on what looks like the south coast.

#9 3100BC
Mining was discovered. Bronze working (8 turns) taken next. Worker completed in Karakorum. Archer begun. Labour adjusted in Karakorum for 3 surplus food and 5 hammers. Farm begun on the corn. Village entered; another map received.

#10 3050BC
Emperor *Satis stepped down.

In conclusion:

The western scout is near the borders of Arabia; the eastern scout is skirting the southern coast of our continent. Karakorum is size 3, with a 5 food per turn surplus; presently 5 turns from expansion. We have a worker and are on the road towards a military. Horses are not yet in sight, unfortunately, but our homeland is extremely hilly so it is unlikely we will be without access to offensive units for long. An Archer is 4 turns away at 3 hammers per turn.

The King is dead, God save the King!

I have a few remarks

*Satis said:

Have our new citizen work the elephants and switch from the grass/forest to plains/forest. This will allow the scout to be completed in 3450.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

*Satis said:

Produce a worker next. This will stop growth until we have gathered 40 hammers. Surplus food counts towards production when you're building workers, so we can go to 6 hammers per turn.
the worker should be completed in 3100 (turn #9 of this term)

Click to expand...

Agreed.

*Satis said:

Research Archery right after Pottery. This is vital to gain access to Keshiks, as well as maintaining a strong city defence. Archery should be discovered in 3200. Research either Animal Husbandry or Mining. Horses and either Copper or Iron are vital to a strong military.

Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong but, assuming we have horses as a resource, I believe we need Archery AND Animal Husbandry AND Horseback Riding to build Keshiks. So, if Keshiks are top priority then those should be our next three techs. Otherwise, I would suggest the next three techs be archery, mining & bronze working.

*Satis said:

Immediately train an Archer. The worker should farm the corn first of all, then head north-west to build a camp on top of the elephants. There is not yet any value to building roads on any tile. After this, Cottages should be constructed followed by a road to the site of our second city but we're getting waaaaay beyond my term of office here.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

*Satis said:

Militarily, the old scout should probe the Egyptians' land and move to the west. The new scout should pop the hut to the east, then move in a south-westerly direction around the lake, on the lookout for commerce- and production-rich city sites. When we have an archer, we can move the warrior northwards to fill in the blanks.

Click to expand...

This sounds perfect to me.

Cheers!

PS Turn chat sounds like fun

Is everyone sure we need Archery just yet? Have any barbarians been encountered or just that single pack of animals?

I say beeline to Bronze Working after Pottery and start our worker chopping (for granary, warriors, settler, etc.), then beeline to Monotheism, found Judaism.

If nearby horses are discovered (please correct me if they already have been), then that changes things-- by all means work towards a powerful army of Keshiks.

Great Report!

*Satis said:

Have our new citizen work the elephants and switch from the grass/forest to plains/forest. This will allow the scout to be completed in 3450.

Click to expand...

Agreed. This is the most bang for the buck, I think.

Produce a worker next. This will stop growth until we have gathered 40 hammers.

Click to expand...

I don't know why my thinking on this has changed in Civ IV, but I really don't like to halt my growth this early. I tend to build my defender, build my military escort and *then* when you're bigger and with more production build your settler. I subsequently build my worker to road between the 2 towns while the new town grows and builds barracks (half cost to us) to churn out my military.

Research Archery right after Pottery. This is vital to gain access to Keshiks. Research either Animal Husbandry or Mining. Horses and either Copper or Iron are vital to a strong military.

Click to expand...

*See Below*

Steely1 said:

Is everyone sure we need Archery just yet? Have any barbarians been encountered or just that single pack of animals?

I say beeline to Bronze Working after Pottery and start our worker chopping (for granary, warriors, settler, etc.),

Click to expand...

I think this is an important discussion point.

The Governor's report clearly outlines productivity as an issue. Mining would allow us to immediately remedy this issue and locating copper/iron resources earlier than later will be valuable in planning our empire's growth.

We're building a warrior escort anyway as we stall for growth and if needed, a spearman would be adequate early defense.

Lastly, I'm a proponent of Slavery (the civic in the game; not the real practice) as the upkeep is also low and the ability to Pop Rush a defender can make or break you (Pop rushing does not seem to cost you the shields progress you had made as it did in Civ III, so you can even change your production cue to a better unit or building).

then beeline to Monotheism, found Judaism.

Click to expand...

I really enjoy religions (and the challenge of playing Spiritual cultures), but I their importance to non-spiritual cultures is vastly over-rated and can create unnecessary tensions with Spiritual Neighbors (both of our known neighbors at this point) when we can simply adopt one of their religions when it spreads to our culture and build good relations while we beat up on the other one.

I think chasing religions just squanders beakers we should be using to take advantage of our strengths (i.e. military tech).

If nearby horses are discovered (please correct me if they already have been), then that changes things-- by all means work towards a powerful army of Keshiks.

Click to expand...

Yes and no. Addressing productivity and growth is more important until we've located actual military targets. If we're intent upon pissing off our religious neightbors with our own heathen beliefs then we should probably ramp up military over infrastructure.

Umm... religions are some of the most powerful things you can use. They can double your commerce easily. Persuing an early military is not the way to go either. Anything other than a settler escort and *maybe* a scout should be totally ignored. Keshiks can also be ignored, I think. Infastructure and religion are key right now, if we win judaism then we don't have to wait for anyone else to send out missionaries... you forget that ****ing off our neighbors only works if we have a different religion...

EDIT sorry for double post

The Elder Alphawolf would like to make the following recomemdations to our great Emperator *Satis:

*Satis said:

As the next DP, I'm starting this thread to plan the way forward for our Great Nation. I intend to play the turnset this sunday evening (GMT), holding a chat if anybody's interested.

Click to expand...

Please post a set time by Sunday morning, I'll be at the chat.

MILITARY ADVISOR: SUB-OFFICE OF CARTOGRAPHY
"There are many blank spaces on our world map. Further rapid exploration is a priority. Exploration to the east is likely to bring the quickest benefits, as there is a goody hut as well as the coastline in that direction. Exploration to the west, towards Arabia, should also be considered a high priority."

Click to expand...

Agreed

SCIENCE ADVISOR
Archery (48 beakers/6 turns)
Archery is required to produce Archers and Keshiks. Archers are powerful city defenders, while Keshiks (our unique unit) are masters of the offensive battle.

Click to expand...

Archery should be next followed by mining we can decide for bronze working or quarry when we get there.

There are other possibilities as well, in addition to long-term goals such as:
Compass
We could train Explorers to reconnoitre the continent faster.

Click to expand...

I vote for Compass.

GOVERNORS' REPORT
KARAKORUM
When the population increases in 3500, we have three principal options:
3) Work the elephants or a forest/plains tile. This will reduce the food surplus from 3 to 2 per turn, but increase production from 2 to 4 hammers.
1) Work the corn. This will increase our food surplus from 3 to 4 per turn.

Click to expand...

I think option 3 is best, and when we grow another one, he should work on the corn.

Emp. Killyouall said:

Umm... religions are some of the most powerful things you can use. They can double your commerce easily. Persuing an early military is not the way to go either. Anything other than a settler escort and *maybe* a scout should be totally ignored. Keshiks can also be ignored, I think. Infastructure and religion are key right now, if we win judaism then we don't have to wait for anyone else to send out missionaries... you forget that ****ing off our neighbors only works if we have a different religion...

Click to expand...

I didn't forget, nor am I advocating a grunt rush strategy. You're advocating a gambit (and not being real friendly about it).

If you fail to win judaism, what did you accomplish? You got Organized Religion, no state religion, and you didn't open up any new buildings, units, or technologies.

Even if you succeed, you still can't exploit any of your resources (e.g. marble needs masonry, horses/keshik need animal husbandry) and you haven't located copper/iron, yet. Moreover, now you have to expend resources to spread the religion to ensure that your neighbors don't embrace a different religion. I agree that religions are powerful (you seem to have selectively ignored parts of my post) but I'm of the mindset of playing the Mongolians in *this* game rather than trusting my general experience with other cultures with other starts.

Looking at the current map, we still haven't figured out where our horses are even going to come from, meaning we're screwed on defense (regardless of our UU) if we don't locate and exploit copper for Axeman (otherwise, archers will be our best unit; another tech we don't have). Copper should probably dictate where our next town is built.

For where we are in the game, I can't see any better choice than Mining. If we locate horses before we finish, we can pursue a Keshik-oriented defense. Otherwise, we need Bronze-Working for Axemen. Once we've established our Classical defense units, we can pursue any infrastructure strategy that amuses you...

Outstanding report! I'll have substantive comments later...

Just a comment on "usability", if all you do is edit a post, the thread doesn't pop up to the recently updated list. For turnsets especially it's better to just add a new post, or at least put a bump at the bottom referring to the previous post that was updated. Thanks

starbolt said:

I don't know why my thinking on this has changed in Civ IV, but I really don't like to halt my growth this early. I tend to build my defender, build my military escort and *then* when you're bigger and with more production build your settler. I subsequently build my worker to road between the 2 towns while the new town grows and builds barracks (half cost to us) to churn out my military.

Click to expand...

That would be a little over the top IMO. When assuming we build a defender first we should start on building a worker who can help building the first settler by chopping... I would churn out units to push exloration and defense until we get BW (or we are shortly in front of getting BW), therefore start the worker right after growing before we get BW would be the best choice, IMO. I definitely would go for a settler when already having a worker...

think this is an important discussion point.

The Governor's report clearly outlines productivity as an issue. Mining would allow us to immediately remedy this issue and locating copper/iron resources earlier than later will be valuable in planning our empire's growth.

We're building a warrior escort anyway as we stall for growth and if needed, a spearman would be adequate early defense.

Click to expand...

I second that!

Lastly, I'm a proponent of Slavery (the civic in the game; not the real practice) as the upkeep is also low and the ability to Pop Rush a defender can make or break you (Pop rushing does not seem to cost you the shields progress you had made as it did in Civ III, so you can even change your production cue to a better unit or building).

Click to expand...

I'm against changing to slavery. In my games it's pointless and I would rather avoid the anarchy-phase. We should think about changing civics when necessary but not right away...
Especially when building units for exploration and other purposes we can wait with slavery, if later it will become necessery...

I really enjoy religions (and the challenge of playing Spiritual cultures), but I their importance to non-spiritual cultures is vastly over-rated and can create unnecessary tensions with Spiritual Neighbors (both of our known neighbors at this point) when we can simply adopt one of their religions when it spreads to our culture and build good relations while we beat up on the other one.

I think chasing religions just squanders beakers we should be using to take advantage of our strengths (i.e. military tech).

Click to expand...

We should start our own (later) religion in some point during the game, but for now I completely agree with you on this one: There're more important things to discover right now...

Stilgar08 said:

That would be a little over the top IMO. When assuming we build a defender first we should start on building a worker who can help building the first settler by chopping... I would churn out units to push exloration and defense until we get BW (or we are shortly in front of getting BW), therefore start the worker right after growing before we get BW would be the best choice, IMO. I definitely would go for a settler when already having a worker...

Click to expand...

There are two reasons that I'm exploring a different build order. Moot now, but this is a walkthrough to get our feet wet.

1) Early military doubles as an close-range explorer and there's practically no risk of barbarians before subsequent units are built. I've never seen animals enter your cultural influence.

2) Food and shields are now *interchangeable* for generating workers/settlers so bigger is better. Grasslands (unimproved) actually hurt your efficiency with regards to building expansion units having only two production.

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With our start, both of the tiles south of us produce 3 food (+2 for our city square), so I'm inclined to exploit that growth by waiting until size 3 or 4 before committing to expansion.

Size 1 (working Corn)
5 food. Storing a surplus of 3 food.
1 shield. Scout/Warrior in 15 turns.

Size 2 (working Corn & Banana)
8 food. Storing a surplus of 4 food.
1 shield. Scout/Warrior in 15 turns.

Size 3 (working Corn, Banana, and Forest/Elephant)
12 production towards expansion unit. 5 turns for a worker. 9 turns for a settler.
OR
9 food. Storing a surplus of 3 food.
3 shields. Scout/Warrior in 5 turns.

OR

Size 3 (working Corn, Banana, and Grassland)
10 food. Storing a surplus of 4 food.

Size 4 (working Corn, Banana, Forest, and Forest/Elephant)
15 production towards expansion unit. 4 turns for a worker. 7 turns for a settler.

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At size 1 or 2, you could work a Forest/Elephant at the expense of 2 food and that seems crippling.

At size 3, I don't think building a worker first really buys you as much as a settler. You can improve 2 tiles in the time it would have taken you to build the settler (and it's subsequent production) which only gives you 2 additional production per turn (food in this case, or health I suppose) vs the 6 production you get by investing in a 2nd town.

At size 4, I think a settler is a no-brainer since the worker can only improve 1 time in that time.

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The chop-rush of the settler is an interesting point and bears discussion for future worker actions.

This works, of course, but I'm disinclined to rush an expansion unit for which I can directly apply food as a resource. I'd rather save the forest chops for builds that require shields only like a library/barracks/military.

Apart from hurrying production, the pro for chopping adjacent forests is defense. The cons include the loss of 1 shield per turn in perpetuity and the health benefit (.5?) to your city for each nearby forest.

In MP, I think the defense chops are mandatory. In single player, I think we should be more selective and in the early game we reap more rewards from keeping the forest until we build a production city somewhere.

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My math might be a little off, but it's ballpark.

I'm against changing to slavery. In my games it's pointless and I would rather avoid the anarchy-phase.

Click to expand...

You're probably right. I'm used to playing Spiritual and micro-managing my civics somewhat situationally. Rightly or wrongly, I am tempted to use slavery to pop rush library, barracks, or military when they are in the throes of unhealthiness (lost food) and unhappiness (lost productivity).

Does anarchy prevent your city from producing food? If not, the penalty for switching earlier might be less impactful than a later switch.

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Lastly, I want to recant my earlier comments about building lake boats. I played a game last night where I had a freshwater lake and Civ IV would not allow me to build any naval units in fresh water cities. I don't recall how Civ III handled this situation, but I know earlier versions did.

Personally, I think this is a bug/design error but I can appreciate the absurdity of building a battleship in an isolated pond. On the other hand, Firaxis fails to appreciate that the Great Lakes supports ships of good size and the computer has no compunction exploring your inland fresh water lakes (if you build a channel city) so ship size certainly wasn't a concern for them.

Fantastic report! This kind of things add a lot to the value of the demogame. I strongly recommend that reports like this to be *manditory* for all future demogames. In case not everyone masters the English language as well as *Satis, we should be considering something like an "Office of Report" so people who are good at it can be elected to do the job.