stDarNES1: Stars! Preview Thread

Hello, all! I am going to take my first stab at hosting an NES. I have been playing in Kam's most excellent NES, and think I have the hang of things. I believe I'm ready to mod.

However, I have noticed a bit of interest in some sort of Future Based NES, and would like to do something of that type. This thread is a preview of an NES I am currently developing the rules for. This won't happen overnight, but with interest, I'll make haste so we can start.

QUICK BACKGROUND:

Mankind has long ago left the contents of the big ol' green-and-blue marble. Centuries of expansion led to the formation of the Dominion, a human Empire spanning hundreds of lightyears. Over time, however, the Dominion began to fall apart from internal strife and struggle, as all great empires do. War spread across Humanspace, ripping the Dominion to shreds, and casuing more death and destruction than the rest of Human history combined.

At the worst point in the conflict, almost a hundred years after the first shots were fired, a bio-mechanic virus began to spread through Humanspace. No one knows where it came from - perhaps it was alien in origin; perhaps a losing faction unleashed it to thwart their enemies; perhaps some angered AI Supermind concocted it to free itself from its Human masters - but regardless, it swept across Humanspace, corrupted every bit of flesh and machine it came across. No defense was found, and as every Human faction was severely weakened by the long, drawn out war, it spelled the end to Humanity.

In a last ditch effort, in various ways, the factions quarantined themselves into their respective homeworlds, and remote detonated ships and space stations in their systems. This worked to prevent the virus (now called the Scourge) from spreading onto the populated worlds, but also meant that Humanity had lost the ability to traverse the stars. Survival came at a high price.

Now, nearly two hundred years later, perhaps because of something inside of the human mind or spirity, several factions have rediscovered the secrets of space travel. All of these worlds retained stories and histories of the once great glory of the Human Dominion. And all believe that their people once ruled the Dominion.

The threat of the Scourge may still exist, but compared to the glory to be gained from re-establishing the Dominion, the risk is acceptable.

Do you have what it takes to lead your faction to glory? If so, then stDarNES1: Stars! is for you. More details will be forthcoming. I am currently working on a ruleset for this NES. It will take a little bit of time, but I would like to see what interest there is for people to play something like this. The more interest, the quicker I'll be motivated to finish developing the rules.

Also note, this will be a STORY NES. Please only sign up if you are interested in writing stories each turn to make things come alive and thereby making this NES more interesting. Bonuses will be handed out each turn to the TOP THREE stories (based upon a secret formula that only I am privy to). Also be aware that there are many dangers out there, so expect hardship during this game. But there are wonders and riches to be discovered, too.
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STAR SYSTEMS AND ECONOMY


Economy is produced by the # of star systems under your control. Each newly colonized Star System produces 1 Economic Point to start, which can be used to build starships, train ground soldiers, research new technology, increase the development of a particular Star System.

Unit production is done PER STAR SYSTEM. In order to produce starships, the Star System must construct a SpaceStation (despite the fact that each star contains multiple planets, only one SpaceStation can be constructed - this represents the infrastructure necessary to construct spaceships). EPs can be used in any Star System (representing Faction-wide production).

Economic Points used for research and/or development can be taken from any Star System.

Each Star System has a MAXIMUM DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL, which becomes known when the Star System is initially probed by a Faction. This is to help players to determine which Star Systems to colonize initially. The potential is pre-determined: each Star System was mapped out prior to gameplay beginning, so players can NOT declare any kind of bias (especially since each player can pick their Home System).

--ECONOMY LEVELS:

FAILED: -4 EP / turn
BANKRUPT: -3 EP / turn
DEPRESSED: -2 EP / turn
RECESSION: -1 EP / turn
STABLE: 0 EP / turn
GROWING: +1 EP / turn
STRONG: +2 EP / turn
RICH: +3 EP / turn
IMPRESSIVE: +4 EP / turn

--CONFIDENCE LEVELS:

OPEN REVOLT, RESISTING, LOATHING, BARELY TOLERATING, TOLERATING, RESPECTFUL, ADMIRING, UNIFIED, GRAND UNIFICATION

--EXPLANATIONS:

Economy will go up and down depending on a variety of factors. Constant development and trade will stimulate your economy, but if you move too far too fast, you can face Economic Troubles. If your Faction's economy falls below STABLE, you can sacrifice your ALL of your EPs to bring your economy up ONE level. You CANNOT bring your economy above STABLE in this manner.

Confidence is a representation of how your population views your Faction. The higher the confidence, the better your military will be, and the more resistant your people will be to invasion. This is mostly raised by GOOD stories, but impressive military campaigns, special projects, artifact discoveries, and more can raise (or lower) the Confidence level.

--BANKING:

From the first turn on, you will be allowed to bank your EPs for a rainy day. The maximum EPs allowed in the bank is 10. When your Economy is BELOW STABLE, the negative EP will come out of your BANKed EPs FIRST. If you hit BANKRUPT, you lose any EPs that are BANKED, and the negative EP will be deducted from your Faction's income.

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STAR SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT:

There are TEN levels of development for each Star System (up to 14, with Terraforming Technologies). All newly colonized Star Systems start at LEVEL 1 (Homeworlds start at LEVEL 3). Economic Investment can increase the development of a Star System, up to it's MAXIMUM DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL. Only Homeworlds have an MDP of 10. The MDP of each Star System on the map is determined prior to start of gameplay, so players cannot cry foul.

To increase the development to the next level, players must invest that number of Economic Points (it takes 4 EP to go from level 3 to level 4). Economic Points produced by that system are equal to the development level (Homeworlds, being level 3 to start, produce 3 Economic points at the start of the game).

--A Star System CANNOT produce anything while it is being developed. On the plus side, the EPs do not need to be invested in a straight shot - you can put any amount of EP into the investment (up to the Max for that level) on one turn, and on the next build some ships, then finish the development on the third turn.--

A Star System must also meet the MINIMUM POPULATION REQUIREMENT in order to develop to the next level.

Colonies cost 1 EP to maintain until they reach Development Level 3.

DEVELOPMENT LEVELS

Dev01 - New Colony. 01 EP, minimum 1,000 colonists (to start viable colony); MAXPOP: 125,000
Dev02 - 02 EP. MINPOP: 25,000 ; MAXPOP: 500,000
Dev03 - 03 EP. MINPOP: 250,000 , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 12.5m
Dev04 - 04 EP. MINPOP: 1million ; MAXPOP: 250m
Dev05 - 05 EP. MINPOP: 25m ; MAXPOP: 750m
Dev06 - 06 EP. MINPOP: 500m , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 5b
Dev07 - 07 EP. MINPOP: 1billion ; MAXPOP: 25b
Dev08 - 08 EP. MINPOP: 10b ; MAXPOP: 75b
Dev09 - 09 EP. MINPOP: 50b , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 150b
Dev10 - 10 EP. MINPOP: 100b , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 250b
Dev11 - 11 EP. MINPOP: 200b , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 350b
Dev12 - 12 EP. MINPOP: 300b , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 450b
Dev13 - 13 EP. MINPOP: 400b , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: 550b
Dev14 - 14 EP. MINPOP: 500b , +1 Defense (to ground attack) ; MAXPOP: NONE

MAXIMUM POPULATION is halfway to the MINPOP for the next level.

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STAR SYSTEM ANNOTATION:

<SYSTEM NAME>
<FACTION>
MDP: ? : (current level) / (current investment) / (investment to next level)
POP(ulation): ? / MINPOP: (# needed for next level)
DEFENSE BONUSES: +?(if any)
SPACESTAION (if any)
CURRENT FLEET: (if any)
CURRENT TROOPS: (if any)

--EXAMPLE:
--NELLIS PRIME
--FEDERATION FACTION
MDP: 5 : 3/2/6
POP: 10m / MINPOP: 1m
DEFENSE BONUSES: +1
SpaceStation
CURRENT FLEET: 1 Carrier(50f), 3 Cruisers
CURRENT TROOPS: 10k Troops, 1k Robots

EXPLORATION AND COLONIZATION

Star Systems are explored by sending either a Fleet, or a Scout Ship. Once the Star System is explored, the MDP will be listed on the StarMap. If there are any anomalies, those will be mentioned in the update.

To Colonize a Star System, send Transports to the System with AT LEAST 1,000 Colonist (Transports can carry the same number of people as they can troops; the colonists are subtracted from the sponsor system's population).

A Colonization Fleet that is ordered to Colonize will set up the colony on the turn the Fleet arrives to the Star System. The Economic benefit will no be available until the turn AFTER colonization.

It also costs 1 EP to establish a colony.

INTERSTELLAR TRADE

Trade can be conducted between Factions. Each Faction must pay 3 EP to establish an open tradelane. If only one Faction pays the EP, then that Faction is the only one to reap the benefits of Trade. A TradeLane will generate +1 EP every 3 turns. TradeLanes can only be made through EXPLORED Star Systems. They can also run through another Faction's territory, if the trading Faction's are at peace with the 3rd Faction. Also, the 3rd Faction will occasionally recieve an EP bonus because of the TradeLanes.

TradeLanes that run through unclaimed Star Systems are at risk of Piracy. There are more human groups out there than the ones who are trying to re-establish the Old Dominion. It's a dangerous galaxy out there.

If WAR is declared between trading partners, the TradeLanes are disrupted permenantly, and the Factions must pay 3EP to re-establish trade after the war (if so desired).

TECHNOLOGY

Technology is divided into six areas of research.

WEAPONS: SHIP (self-explanatory. anything from hard munitions, to exotic energy, to missile technology. up to you)

WEAPONS: TROOP (self-explanatory. dictates ground troop combat strength)

CONSTRUCTION (allows larger ships, and better defenses on those ships)

ENERGY (unlocks terraforming, which allows higher development of Star Systems; can unlock shield technology for xtra defense)

ROBOTICS (unlocks robotic troops, can also add offense/defense value to ships and/or troops)

BIOTECH (provides an increasing resistance to the scourge, bonus to population, gentroops)

--THE SCOURGE IS STILL PRESENT. IT WILL BE ENCOUNTERED EVENTUALLY. A CURE CAN BE FOUND, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT ADVANCEMENT IN EVERY TECHNOLOGY FIELD--
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-Cost of Technology:

Only ONE technology can be researched at a time. EPs must be invested in one technology until it is fully researched. If you switch gears to a different tech, you will lose ALL EPs invested in the other field.

Technology starts at TECH LEVEL 1. The cost of each level is the same as the level (tech 2 costs 2 EPs, tech 3 costs 3, and so on).

-Each Faction can pick 2 techs that they start with at TECH 2.

TECHNOLOGY ANNOTATION:
<TECH NAME> - (current level) / (current investment) / (investment needed)
--EX: Weapons:Ship - 2/1/3

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MILITARY

---STARSHIPS---

SCOUTS - very low defense, almost no offensive capabilities. Good only for exploration. (CT1)

TRANSPORTS - carry ground troops/colonists. can be upgraded when larger hull designs are researched. (CT1)

FIGHTERS - smallest fighting ships. provide the basic escort for transports and carriers. Without Carriers, fighters cannot travel Starlanes. (CT1)

CARRIERS - carry FIGHTERS. more advanced construction technology will allow larger carrying capacity. (CT2)

CRUISERS - smallest capital ship. can hold its own against smaller fleets of fighters. (CT3)

DESTROYERS - mid-size capital ship. about twice as strong as a cruiser of similar tech level. Capable of 'bombing' a Star System. (CT6)

BATTLESHIPS - large capital ship. about twice as strong as a destroyer, and only a VERY large fleet of fighters can hope to combat them. Capable of large-scale 'bombing' (CT10)

DEATH STARS - VERY powerful. VERY expensive. VERY high-tech (a very late game item). Can conduct devastating 'bombing' attacks (CT15)

SPACESTATION - required for a Star System to construct starships. Fairly expensive, but you only need one per system. SpaceStations also provide a +3 Defense Rating to the Star System. (CT1)


---TROOPS---

SOLDIERS - basic ground troops. research WEAPONS: TROOP to increase their strength. (W:TT1)

GENTROOPS - mid-level troops. research BIOTECH to initially discover. (BT3)

ROBOTS - research ROBOTICS to initially discover (R6)

---UPGRADING---

1 Economic point will upgrade up to 5,000 troops. 1 Economic point will upgrade 25 Capital Ships, 50 Escort Ships, or 250 Fighters. 1 Economic point will upgrade the defenses of up to 5 Star Systems. This will upgrade no MORE than TWO levels, so you better keep upgrades in mind even during times of Peace.

---BUILDING SHIPS AND TRAINING ARMIES:---

Each Economic Point spent will build/train the following:

SOLDIERS = 1000
CYBORGS = 500
ROBOTS = 100

SCOUTSHIPS = 1 (Escort)
TRANSPORTS = 10 (Escort)
CARRIERS = 5 (Escort)
FIGHTERS = 50 (Fighter)
CRUISERS = 6 (Escort)
DESTROYERS = 3 (Capital)
BATTLESHIPS = 1 (for 2 EPs) (Capital)
DEATH STARS = 1 (for 4 EPs) (Capital)
SPACE STATION = 1 (for 3 EPs)

---FLEETS---

PLEASE separate your starships into fleets. Provide me with the name of the fleet and what ships it contains. This will keep the micromanagement down to a minimum, and make it easier to keep track of what is where. Right now, there are no limits on how many fleets you can have.

---COMBAT---

I encourage you to be creative in your orders. Comprehensive orders will stand a better chance of victory than single lines (unless, of course, those single lines are GOOD). There are a number of things that will affect combat: Confidence, Tech Levels, etc.

---UNIQUE UNITS---

Each Faction may create a Unique Unit. Please note, it should be something that would be feasibly tied-into your current technology. It will be allowed to grow and upgrade over time. Based upon how powerful it is, I will determine the cost for each Faction's UU.

SPACE TRAVEL

Travel is done through Jump Gates left behind by the Old Dominion. For some reason, the technology used was untouched by the Scourge, and rediscovered by each Faction as they returned to space and began re-exploring their Star Systems. (200 years is a long time, and one will often be surprised how much knowledge can be lost).

For gameplay purposes, there THREE Starlane types, GREEN, YELLOW, and RED. The distinction is as follows:

GREEN STARLANES: A fleet can travel a GREEN starlane in ONE turn, regardless of the length on the Starmap.

YELLOW STARLANES: A fleet can travel a YELLOW starlane in TWO turns, regardless of the length on the Starmap.

RED STARLANES: A fleet can travel a RED starlane in THREE turns, regardless of the length on the Starmap.

--Technology Advances can reduce the amount of Travel time--

SPECIAL PROJECTS

B E C R E A T I V E ! ! ! !

Special Projects do not cost any EP, but the time to build is determined by the mod, based upon what kind of benefit it will give your faction. Each Empire is allowed THREE Special Projects. (This may change, depending on how long this NES goes on for).

Be mindful that your Special Projects don't bypass the inherent rules of the game. For example, don't try to build a Special Project that will give you a travel bonus on Starlanes. However, if you are close to discovering said technology, you can start a Project to give you tech levels upon completion.

THE SCOURGE

Yes, the Scourge is still out there. Yes, it is still QUITE dangerous. But, researching BioTech will begin to give your Faction an increased resistance to the Scourge. Also, sufficiently advanced research will eventually unlock the secrets of the Scourge, which will render immunity to it. There are several paths to this, but they remain hidden from player view. (Makes it more fun, IMHO).

If the Scourge is found in a Star System there is a chance it can infect ships in your fleet. If the system is colonized, then you risk the Scourge making Planetfall, which could allow it to spread to other planets. The Scourge, according to the old databases, appears to be somewhat intelligent, and can be carried without sign of infection, in order to propagate itself.

At the beginning of the game, the only way to prevent Scourge Infection is to vacate the system entirely. However, this is not always possible, since the infected System might be an important point in the Starlane network. In these cases, travel can be conducted, but ensure your orders detail that your Fleet is just "passing through." This will minimize exposure to the Scourge. But there will still be a chance of infection.

Until more advanced technology is discovered, ships will need to be detonated, and planets sterilized. Unless, of course, you want to spread the infection, but that probably isn't a great idea.

Hey, it's a tough galaxy out there.

ON RANDOM DISCOVERIES / EVENTS

There is the opportunity to discover ruins from the Old Dominion, derelict Spaceships, and other goodies. These are found by exploring Star Systems. Some will require your Faction to Colonize the Star System and an EP investment to be able to research / use these artifacts; others (like derelict spacecraft) will only cost EP to make use of.

Not everything is beneficial, though. There are plenty of unknown dangers out there. Be prepared, and don't be surprised if it happens to you. These things are determined by Star System prior to the start of gameplay.

Occasionally, there will be things discovered that will add boosts to your Economy, or give permenant benefits. But those will be much more rare.

Star Systems with Special Items MUST be colonized before use can be made of them:

-->Derelicts: Invest 1 EP to repair at your current tech level; OR: Scrap the ship (1 turn) for an EP boost; OR: Invest 3 EP to strip the ship down and attempt to gain technology from it.

-->Old Dominion Ruins: Invest 2 EP to investigate the ruins. Can contain tech, or economy, or what not.


NPCs

Beyond the player Factions vying for control of the Old Dominion territory, there are other human colonies throughout that are content to stay in their Star Systems. They can become allies or enemies. It will be possible to try to integrate them peacefully into your Faction, or through conquest. Trade is possible, if they are willing.

When discovered, these NPC Factions will have their stats posted.

---FACTION INFO---

Use the following template to create your Faction:

<FACTION NAME>
<PLAYER NAME>
<HOMEWORLD>
GOVERNMENT: <BE REASONABLE AND CREATIVE>
TOTAL POPULATION: 500k
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TECHNOLOGY:
-Weapons:Ship - 1/0/2
-Weapons:Troop - 1/0/2
-Construction - 1/0/2
-Energy - 1/0/2
-Robotics - 1/0/2
-Biotech - 1/0/2
-----
CONFIDENCE: Tolerating
ECONOMY: Stable
TOTAL ECONOMY: 3
TRADE ECONOMY: 0
-----
ARMY: 1,000 Soldiers
FLEET: 100 Fighters, 1 Scoutship
SPECIAL PROJECTS: (none)
-----
BRIEF DESCRIPTION:


-Select TWO technologies to start at TECH LEVEL 2.

-Be creative with you Government and such. You never know how it might affect the game.

STARMAP - Circa New Dominion Era (NDE) 1
(Note: I know it doesn't look all spiffy, but paint is the easiest tool to work with in my multiple environments)

Wonderful! I've been waiting for something like this for some time now
If this includes the possibility to desing your own warships from the scratch and weapons like photon torpedos and ion cannons I'm in!!!

@andis-1: not sure how in-depth I will go on things like that, simply because it would be an accounting nightmare for each updates (especially later on down the road). But I'm sure I can throw some stuff like that into this.

Perhaps do something like this as a Faction-specific Unique Unit.

I'm currently playing around with different rules for economy/industry, science, and, of course, a gridded sector map for the Human quadrant (disclaimer: no basis on our actual spiral arm).

As I get preliminary rules solidified, I'm going to post them here, and see if anyone might have suggestions to make things simpler/easier/better.

If the story effects are going to be HARD SF, I'm in.

If my two years of reading hard SF, studying advanced physics, and generally staying informed of technology is going to be rendered useless because you wave your hand and declare your NES to be above things like realism - hell no, there are a hundred others willing to do that.

I'll be fine with a boardgame, though. But I'm not fine with you giving bonuses to stories that look like Star Trek's particle-of-the-week excuses for a plot.

Capiche?

So, can I have some more rules data, please?

I second Erik's sentiments.

Except the 'Capiche'; I would never say that.

Actually though for the purposes of gameplay I would be okay with a bit of 'black boxing' tech (I.e. a FTL drive so we can actually have interstellar empires) as long as its consistent, has costs, and is out of the players hands as far as further development is concerned (Larry Niven's Ringworld is a alright example of this - hyperdrive handed down from superadvanced aliens - if you build an X big drive you will go Y fast etc)

i would love to join
but just wondering... how are you going to make the map of the galaxy? that's always an issue in interstellar-style NESs - the map - that i find difficult and as a possible roadblock.

Well it all depends on the size of "Local Space"; assign place values to each star, generate a rotatable map of scattered points then annotate in Photoshop...easy if we are only dealling with a few dozen star systems (a whole galaxy obviously couldn't be done this way)
The attached graph took me about 5 mins to make, one with real world stellar co-ordinates would obviously require a good spot of work but shouldn't be that difficult, and this one can be considerably prettied up (and have a nice distance matrix extracted).

Sounds cool. Does the scourge still exist?

i also think it sounds cool

id also like to offer any graphics help etc.

I had thought about doing something like this, and had a go at making a star-map in flash. heres something i came up with. The green, grey and yellow dots where to represent food, minerals and energy at each star.

The star lanes/trade lines are bendy and easily moved/removed. The dots and star names are also easily changed. If the background was changed to pure black, it would probably compress more nicely as a png.

Maybe you could combine something like this with something 3d?

to daftpanzer

that looks a lot like something out of the Masters of Orion space-strategy game series or out of galactic civilizations. is it?

COOOLLLLL I WANT IN. Call me the Principality of Zeon, my home base is actually an artifical space colony called the plants, and my military branch will be known as ZAFT while I send my Gundams to spread the glory of genetic enhancement!!!!

lurker's comment: Please kill Krimzon with the Scourge first...

Kamilian said:

that looks a lot like something out of the Masters of Orion space-strategy game series or out of galactic civilizations. is it?

Click to expand...

No its not from a game, i made the picture just messing about

Background is hubble image of nebula i think, darkened/faded in a photoshop style program i have. Stars are lens flares which are done in same program. Then i loaded all that as a background image in the marcomedia flash editor i downloaded. I know flash is for animations and games etc, but i find flash really cool for maps and things too, very handy for moving lines around and bending them like you can't do in any photoshop style program ive seen.

Disenfrancised 3d is cooler though, could rotate the galaxy and show zoomed-in regions etc

Wow Daft - nice picture!

The problem with my program is that you can't quite get such pretty graphics ...but if our powers combine! (i.e make a 3D backbone with annotated points and the use that to correctly position all those pretty stars you've got)

Imagine!

KrimzonStriker said:

COOOLLLLL I WANT IN. Call me the Principality of Zeon, my home base is actually an artifical space colony called the plants, and my military branch will be known as ZAFT while I send my Gundams to spread the glory of genetic enhancement!!!!

Click to expand...

I want in, just so I can get vengance for that. Krimzon, you DIE. DIE TO THE MAX.

Unless you're dealing with an extremely small space relative to the galactic plane it would honestly be better to just go with a flat map. The 3D element just adds a whole lot of complexity for little benefit, especially given this is a story-driven game.

On that note, Free Orion roxors j00.

Wow, some great interest and great ideas. My inspiration for this is actually based on an old game called Stars! (can't find a working link right now).

Since the game takes place within the old Dominion borders, it is only a relatively small slice of space. Also, my plan for travel was to have each system connected through lanes created through the 'jumpgates' (for lack of better term), left behind by the Dominion before the Scourge. The map representation is Flat, since travel between stars is through the gates, and there is no need for a true 3D representation (plus it's a lot easier for me to keep track of things).

Because of the inherent complexity of anything futuristic, there will be quite a few abstracts. I will NOT be going into detail as to the makeup of each individual star system (star type, planet types, mineral contents, etc). That can be developed through the stories of players.

I WILL be keeping track of separate star system population, there WILL be research into more advanced technology, and there WILL be need to invest in industrial capacity. Plus, there will be more than just a generic TROOP / FLEET. I haven't fully decided the breakdown, but I want to add variety. Plus, each faction will be allowed to create a Unique Unit to use during the course of the game.

Each update is planned to represent one "year" (based on Old Dominion standards). As such, I do not expect to be covering hundreds upon hundreds of years within this NES (although we'll see what happens).

As far as maintaining a complete and utter HARD SF standard, I cannot fully agree with this. I refuse to give in to the Trek "particle-of-the-week-to-save-the-day" but I also need to suspend belief for purposes of game and story telling. If you're looking for advanced physics theory and whatnot, then, sorry, this will not be the NES for you. If you're looking to have fun with a futuristic story-based NES, then you've come to the right place.

I will be working heavily over the weekend to get preliminary rules down, and a preliminary star map completed. As I complete these things I will post for comment and suggestions on how to make the rules better / more balanced / more fair / more fun.

Thank you all for your interest! And I promise to have more information up as soon as possible (I'm at work right now, so don't expect much in the next 10 - 12 hours.)