New Military Idea

Yaotl

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
54
Location
Mexico
I am one of those ppl who love realism. Sadly I have a hard time believin a 15ft giant with a club will pop up in cities. There are also many warmonger restrainyts due to how the game works. So here are my ideas.

-Make units a tad smalller
-Give them a name for ex. 1st (No. to nopt confuse other armies) Army (optional could be Battalion or Division) of Northern Virginia (City Name where produced)
-Creation of a General unit or Great General that can be grouped with a certain unit to give the upper hand
-Make them faster and cheaper and faster to build (not to much)

A Q: is any of these possible

Any other suggestions would be helpful
 
1)Easy .xml fix

2)Should be quite a simple script in python

3)Great General has already been done - check the completed modpacks forum

4) .xml tweaking again!

All very very possible!
 
WooHoo

but to my second problem any other suggestions that could improve military in Civ4
 
Ok, I'm not really sure if this is helpful or just a wild goose chase, but to me one of the most unrealistic things in Civ is how it takes 40 years to move a warrior one square. Just...why? Am I suppose to believe it takes 40 years to travel the distance from Washington,D.C. to Baltimore on foot? Granted...it would take a long freakin' time to march that distance, but not that long.

Back when I played Civ2 I had a movement mod to fix the years-per-turn rate and allow more movement per turn. I'd love to do some research and find out how fast units really can move in different terrain. The main problem with increasing movement rate though is, the more a unit can move, the less the enemy is able to intercept it. How could this be fixed...we could bring back the Civ2 movement controls that didn't let you move past an enemy unit. Or, reduce the turn-length, which brings up a whole other set of problems. Or...

What if we had a different turn length of one-month during war time and one year (or whatever the original turn length was) during peace? For a one month turn, all research/production/movement etc would be divided by 12. This would allow wars to be fought on a quick-response scale, instead of letting units with more movement points run right through a gauntlet they wouldn't be able to dance around in real life. e.g., during peace-time maybe you could move a destroyer 12 spaces, but during war you move at 1 space per month.

I can see this concept needs some refining before a mod is made for it...I'm still trying to decide whether it even makes sense to have turns take longer at early stages of the game, and how to do this while still being like real history (ie, no discovering genetics in 3000 BC) I'll think of something... :D
 
Hmm... that could be a problem maybe units in their homeland should move faster than foreign units in their homeland. Though this could idea could get complicated to manifest in the game.

I'm going to refine my ideas on Army Organization.

Regular units will be called Divisions which can be grouped to create Batallions(must check spelling) nd Battalions can become Armies. Grouping Armies gives certain advantages but slows down the units.

Now what to do about my General Idea. I think that just grouping it (using a existing mod for Great General) will give better combat. Maybe a promotion.
 
I came up with a generals idea a few weeks back that I would like to do, but I am not sure if it is possible. I think it might be. Now that the Great Generals mod is done, it may be moot. I haven't looked at it yet, so I don't know what it is.

Basically, a General unit is created, and he can then be attached to two other units. Then, as he gains experience, he gains rank and can then command more units, including other Generals. This goes on for four levels. Each level can command other Generals of a lower level, and the benefits filter down so that the heighest ranking General can command something like 54 (or another plan is 36) individule units.

I've attached a "proposal" I made for the idea in Wordpad, to help me keep everything organized. Read it for better info on what I am talking about. It still needs a lot of work to really be a usable idea right now.

One other thing, isn't a Battalion smaller than a Division? I thought Divisions were made up of Battalions, which were made of Brigades, which were made of Regiments. Is that the way the did it in the 19th century, but not today?
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Attachments

Joren, I like your idea, but I reckon it would only work in single player mode, and as long as you restrict the time-warp to instances when *you* go to war.
I can imagine waiting 30 turns for the Pyramids to build, and just when there's only one more turn to go, Napoleon decides to be his usual stupid self and go to war with someone you havent even met yet on the other side of the world, and BAM! twelve turns to go! Imagine how much worse this would be on multiplayer... 2 players have a border squabble, and the rest are forced to play at the sloooow dragging speed of the time-warp...
If it got made for single player, and it only activated on your wars (AI - AI wars woudl continue to be fought as they are now, with reduced realism, but what do you care, youre not even there!), it could make for a seriously cool mod...
 
Basically, a General unit is created, and he can then be attached to two other units. Then, as he gains experience, he gains rank and can then command more units, including other Generals. This goes on for four levels. Each level can command other Generals of a lower level, and the benefits filter down so that the heighest ranking General can command something like 54 (or another plan is 36) individule units.

I've attached a "proposal" I made for the idea in Wordpad, to help me keep everything organized. Read it for better info on what I am talking about. It still needs a lot of work to really be a usable idea right now.
Good Ideas

One other thing, isn't a Battalion smaller than a Division? I thought Divisions were made up of Battalions, which were made of Brigades, which were made of Regiments. Is that the way the did it in the 19th century, but not today?
Battalion sounds larger than division :) j/k I didn't know that someone should clarify.

Joren, I like your idea, but I reckon it would only work in single player mode, and as long as you restrict the time-warp to instances when *you* go to war.
I can imagine waiting 30 turns for the Pyramids to build, and just when there's only one more turn to go, Napoleon decides to be his usual stupid self and go to war with someone you havent even met yet on the other side of the world, and BAM! twelve turns to go! Imagine how much worse this would be on multiplayer... 2 players have a border squabble, and the rest are forced to play at the sloooow dragging speed of the time-warp...
If it got made for single player, and it only activated on your wars (AI - AI wars woudl continue to be fought as they are now, with reduced realism, but what do you care, youre not even there!), it could make for a seriously cool mod...
I agree but I'm not sure my laptop already suffers from lagging and I don't want to make it suffer with a extended game. There should be something we can do to balance.
 
Yaotl said:
Hmm... that could be a problem maybe units in their homeland should move faster than foreign units in their homeland. Though this could idea could get complicated to manifest in the game.

I'm going to refine my ideas on Army Organization.

Regular units will be called Divisions which can be grouped to create Batallions(must check spelling) nd Battalions can become Armies. Grouping Armies gives certain advantages but slows down the units.

Now what to do about my General Idea. I think that just grouping it (using a existing mod for Great General) will give better combat. Maybe a promotion.

Actually it should be the other way around. Battalions should be grouped to form divisions, then divisions for armies....if you want to get really technical.

Kushan
 
JorenCombs said:
Ok, I'm not really sure if this is helpful or just a wild goose chase, but to me one of the most unrealistic things in Civ is how it takes 40 years to move a warrior one square. Just...why? Am I suppose to believe it takes 40 years to travel the distance from Washington,D.C. to Baltimore on foot? Granted...it would take a long freakin' time to march that distance, but not that long.

I was thinking about something today, about how tech makes the world smaller - not really in size, but that technology enables us to reach further. For example, take the drive from Kansas City to Denver - today, it'd be around 15 hours, give or take a few hours. 200 years ago, however, that same trip would take a lot longer. I think the Civ games deal with that by keeping the unit moves the same, but reducing the years per turn as the game progresses. Also, it's not just "a warrior" that you are moving - it's a unit of warriors. Not sure exactly how many are in that one unit, but it's probably a large number, and it's harder to move hundreds of men than a dozen.
 
I have the same opinion of the game speed when it comes to war. I guess it just bothers me that I'm supposed to have a war of the same magnitute as WWII in a few short turns which aren't even long enough for me to mobilize my military let alone conquer and then loose most of Europe.

Anyway, what I've done is pretty simple...

1) Decreased production costs of all military units by 50%. It isn't a big of a change as it sounds and since the upkeep is no different you can easily cripple your economy. The AI seems to handle it ok and it's been a lot of fun charging head-first into a garrison of 12+ assorted defenders. It's now possible to build up a propper army of Macemen, for example, before they are obsolete.

2) Increased the movement speeds of most military units. This is a more gradual change, early units such as warriors have no bonus while modern units all move twice as fast. It still takes years to walk between cities (don't these grunts have trucks yet? ) but it is pretty easy to mobilize your military. I'm not sure about the increased naval unit speeds yet, on large maps it's perfect but on standard and smaller maps they're a bit too quick.

3) Increased road & railroad speeds. This is a HUGE benefit for the defending army and in the time it takes the enemy to move their units withing striking range of your city you can move in reinforcements from several cities. It also offsets the problem of marauding mounted & armored units since. At the same time it makes destroying road & railroad improvments a very sound tactical descision, you can litterally cut the enemies army in half by destroying their infrastructure.

4) Increased technology research costs. Again, this is a gradual change starting with a small 10% increase in the Renassance Era, 25% in the Industrial Era, 50% in the Modern Era and 100% for Future Techs. This has helped increase the amount of time before units become obsolete later in the game. Combined with the production cost & movement change I've been enjoying some unusually large wars with units I never had the chance to really use before.

5) And finally, some minor changes to the game speeds. Right now I'm testing it with twice as many turns, each of them lasting half as long (1 year seems to be the minimum without more modding) for Epic games. Combined with the rest of the changes I have more time to fight and I can effectively move units up to twice as far in as little as half the time.

None of the non-military (e.g. worker) units have increased movement rates so I've actually had some early wars with opponents when we weren't building cities right next to each other. It's a fun feeling to march a hoard of Axemen & Archers over the hills and through the woods to Ghengis' house :D

It still needs some work and tweaking but as a basic warmonger mod it has a lot of fun potential to it. Multiplayer testing has been a lot of fun too, the AI uses the units to some degree but no computerized opponent will ever hit you with the tenacity of another human. So far in games against the AI the earliest I have hit Future tech has been 1946 after conquering three of six continents on a standard sized custom continents map, without these changes I could easily hit Future Tech by the 1400's on the same maps. It's been most fun with the AI set to aggressive and raging barbarians enabled, large & huge maps can be problematic because of the sheer volume of units crawling over the globe.

This isn't an add for my unreleased & unannounced mod, just some examples of what can be easily changed and what effects you can expect from it. I had first tried something as simple as decreasing the build costs & increasing the movement rates but it wasn't enough...
 
You know with a bit of modifying your idea, Seven05, I think it would work wonderfully for such mod. I mean I can't argue against you, you have very good ideas.
 
Well it makes it fun for me and at the risk of sounding rude that's all I really care about :D

Since you asked if it could be done in the original post I hope some of my experiences with my own attempts can at least give you some idea of what you can do and what you can expect to see in return. Changing the production cost of units is easy:

In the file /assets/xml/units/CIV4UnitInfos.xml look for a line like "<iCost>20</iCost>" and change it as desired (lower is quicker to build). You can also chaneg their movement speeds in there if you want.

To change the movement speed on roads & railroads:

In /assets/xml/misc/CIV4RouteInfos.xml look for the two following lines, you'll see one set of these lines for roads and another for railroads:

<iMovement>30</iMovement>
<iFlatMovement>30</iFlatMovement>

You can set those lower and your units will move faster on the roads. You can also adjust the technology needs for the road speed increase, I opted to change mine to combustion instead of engineering. It's a negative number like "<iMovementChange>-10</iMovementChange>" the more you subtract the more of a speed increase you'll see. You may want to be careful so as not to have your roads end up faster than the railroads with the tech speed bonus.

Those two changes alone will have a pretty substantial impact on combat in your games. If you change the base movement rate of the units you'll be able to do much more offensively than you currently can. If you want to play on large maps or if your PC is struggling with the game already you should also consider disabling multi-unit graphics.
 
Seven05 thanks for helping out. And really the point of a game is to enjoy.
 
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